Hua Quan- Questions Regarding Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1278198]…Have you seen the one in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiQian? This is the same as the one I practice, I have seen its poem repeated in several places and I think it is the best candidate for a standard 18 Shou. It is not in the Encyclopedia.[/QUOTE]
yea. we talked about it in the Luohan quan thread. it’s said to have been passed down by Li Gensheng, which as you know was a folk master. i still don’t know anything about its origin. but has much in common with xiyuan small Tong Bi quan, and especially the 1st form of the strange 18-form Luohan system that i posted its first 10 forms into the Luohan thread. strange, that 1st form of that 18-form Luohan quan also was exactly of the kind of and somehow identical to xiyuan small Tong Bi quan. the origins go toward xiyuan and its Tong Bi quan, for sure.
it was just a conjecture, but i guessed this one is called Luohan 18 hands because its 18 techniques are exactly those that form that 1st form of that strange 18 Luohan quan. complicated.

[QUOTE=LFJ;1278208]A couple comments;

  • I learned that the traditional stick fighting method of Luohan was Yinyanggun, not Fengmogun…[/QUOTE]
    strange! because of the many Shaolin staff forms, shao huo gun and feng mo gun overtly have completely Buddhist luohan postures and nature. yin shou gun and yin yang gun both come almost directly from the Ming generals Yu Dayu and others. these don’t show any Buddhist luohan attitude and are not of Luohan quan in origin, but could have been adopted to the system later on.

…Nanyuan Tongbeiquan

this is another case of the “different styles, same/similar names.” Shaolin has no Tong Bei quan. Shaolin tong bi quan origin, as you know, comes from general Han Tong’s Tong Bi quan of the Song dynasty (this Tong Bi quan, now, also as you know, part of xiyuan big Tong Bi quan though it’s a small form, and Taizu Chang quan, and Da Hong quan, and Shaolin small Mei Hua quan, and probably Wu He quan, and some other styles of the early Song dynasty are all based on the methods that the generals of the early Song dynasty taught their armies. all these styles share much technical contents in common.) later, the monks mixed Han Tong’s Tong Bi style (maybe called Tong Bi quan because of Han Tong’s name? both these 'Tong’s are the same exact Chinese word) with small and big Hong quan, etc, to make the 3-form Tong Bi quan, now called small nanyuan Tong Bi quan. Tong Bei quan is a totally different Daoist style. there we see almost no technical similarity between Shaolin Tong Bi quan, and Daoist Tong Bei quan. i think using the totally different name Tong Bei for Shaolin Tong Bi style is probably because of the similarity of the names. despite this much spread confusion, i’m yet to see any reliable source mentioning any logical relation between Shaolin Tong Bi quan and the Daoist Tong Bei quan.

If you ask me, the version shown in the Encyclopedia is very disjointed and hard to follow, as if deliberately scrambled to further obscure what it is, along with making it seem as if it’s part of an 8 or 9 road Luohan system, which clearly it is not. Not sure what exactly Sal was talking about when he suggested a Baguazhang connection to it and how it should be like the Encyclopedia version. That version makes no sense. I’ve never seen anyone do it like that, and everyone in Zhenxu’s sect does it the same way.

this is definitely a wrong impression. i previously talked about it in the Luohan thread, and i thought it was enough to show that the Encyclopedia version is the same. but seems it had not been enough. ok. i make that description pictorial and post it here tonight. maybe that helps.

[QUOTE=taichi4eva;1278223]…the term Kanjia…does it point to something special? “watch over the household”[/QUOTE]
both of these. in Shaolin theres is more than one Kan Jia quan. one means ‘guard/watch over the household,’ another means ‘special.’ and i think there’s more. about the ‘guard the home’ style, it’s is said to have been created under the supervision of abbot FuJu (Song dynasty, 960s AD) or FuYu (Yuan dynasty, 1200s AD). about the ‘special’ style, i’m unsure if it refers to one specific style. many lineages pick up a form and call it ‘special.’

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[QUOTE=SHemmati;1278240]Shaolin has no Tong Bei quan.[/QUOTE]

You are mistaken.

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[QUOTE=SHemmati;1278240]strange! because of the many Shaolin staff forms, shao huo gun and feng mo gun overtly have completely Buddhist luohan postures and nature. yin shou gun and yin yang gun both come almost directly from the Ming generals Yu Dayu and others. these don’t show any Buddhist luohan attitude and are not of Luohan quan in origin, but could have been adopted to the system later on.[/quote]

An entire section of the first road of Yinshougun is found in the middle of both Shaohuogun and Fengmogun and it shares the methodology of Fengmogun. It’s also not just a single form, but an entire stick fighting system.

later, the monks mixed Han Tong’s Tong Bi style (maybe called Tong Bi quan because of Han Tong’s name? both these 'Tong’s are the same exact Chinese word) with small and big Hong quan, etc, to make the 3-form Tong Bi quan, now called small nanyuan Tong Bi quan. Tong Bei quan is a totally different Daoist style.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is “Renshou Tongbiquan”. It’s a different subsystem from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. They aren’t actually Da and Xiao pairs, and they are both long forms broken into three parts for instructional videos. I confirm that from my Nanyuan lineage.

RenDaHai has confirmed from his Xiyuan lineage, they also have Tongbeiquan, and there is another standard Shaolin Tongbiquan that is not Renshou Tongbiquan, nor is it anything like Tongbeiquan.

Despite what you may have read and image of history you now hold, these are confirmed from the source. You still have some things mixed up. There is more, and it is confusing, but these are the facts according to the actual lineages that train these.

both of these. in Shaolin theres is more than one Kan Jia quan. one means ‘guard/watch over the household,’ another means ‘special.’

These are both translations of the same characters , not different names. Kanjiaquan is a commonly used name, so naturally there are many things under this title. Each sect will have a “Kanjiaquan” which is their “special” style used to “guard the household”. Literally it means to guard the household, but also means special or outstanding in reference to skill or ability. Usually when you find a form or system with this name, it also has another specific name. Kanjiaquan in that sense isn’t the actual name of the system, but a title meaning this system or form is the special/best/secret techniques of the sect.

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ba bu lian huan is absolutely from hua quan system.

lian huan quan was renamed from lian hua quan, which means lotus flower boxing. this came from white lotus/boxer rebellion. after white lotus got suppressed again name was changed.

lian hua quan is very recent creation and its poems mainly focuses on fighting europeans.

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[QUOTE=LFJ;1278249]…It’s also not just a single form, but an entire stick fighting system.[/QUOTE]
in most cases the Shaolin styles have originally one or a couple of forms. but there’s more additional form created and dedicated to the temple by other people. like small and big Hong quan, which have a number of such additional forms. not sure, but the story of these additional yin shou gun forms is most probably of this kind.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is “Renshou Tongbiquan”. It’s a different subsystem from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. They aren’t actually Da and Xiao pairs, and they are both long forms broken into three parts for instructional videos. I confirm that from my Nanyuan lineage.

RenDaHai has confirmed from his Xiyuan lineage, they also have Tongbeiquan, and there is another standard Shaolin Tongbiquan that is not Renshou Tongbiquan, nor is it anything like Tongbeiquan.

Despite what you may have read and image of history you now hold, these are confirmed from the source. You still have some things mixed up. There is more, and it is confusing, but these are the facts according to the actual lineages that train these.

actually, this is the case with any small&big pairs in Shaolin quan. usually these small&big forms are of different eras, different systems and origins. what makes them the pair is not the history, origin, or system, but the ‘technical’ kind of similarity and mutual cooperation.

the long forms broken into 3 parts is a tradition, nothing recent. most people know 2 parts of the 3, or just 1, but all know the exact position of the 3 sections in the forms because they have learned it in their lineages. also, most the video instructors just perform exact 2 or all the 3 such parts of the forms absolutely without even mentioning anything of these breaks and this 3-part tradition. the only person clearly mentioning it, as i recall, is Shi Deyang. nobody else.

but about Tong Bi/Bei quan. in the names yes. we know a portion of monks call those forms Tong Bei. that may have some technical reason because of that kind of backward maneuver in that Nanyuan style (picture). though it’s not similar to the famous Tong Bei quan backward maneuver (picture), it’s a backward maneuver after all. i just know one form of xiyuan big Tong Bi quan, it may also have some such method to justify the name to be Tong Bei, meaning ‘through-the-back’. but, whatever called, Tong Bi or Bei or anything, these Shaolin forms have no technical, and as far as there’s documents, neither historical connection with the famous, non-Shaolin, Tong Bei quan. these styles are irrelevant, just there’s similarity of the names. (and there’s more to this: Shaolin xin yi quan, mi zong quan, and many other Shaolin styles are irrelevant to the more famous non-Shaolin styles with these same names. this needs a thread.)

These are both translations of the same characters , not different names. Kanjiaquan…

right, the same characters. but different meanings, so different names. like the case of Jin Gang, for Vajrapani and for diamond, the same characters, different meanings.
the old style created by FuJu or FuYu, though special, it actually meant to ‘guard the home.’ according to the quan pu it was created for the temple guardians. also, there’s one style mostly known in abbot Yongxin’s lineage with the actual meaning of ‘special.’ a short spectacular form. and, as said, many lineages have their ‘special’ styles.

this thread is of an orphan topic itself. but it gets interesting with the various topics discussed.

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In SongShan TongBei has as many sets as HongQuan. Whichever style, whichever village there will be at least a TongBei or a HongQuan or both.

Its true the names TongBi and TongBei are often confounded. Shaolin has both and lots of both. Arm and back can both be pronounced in a similar manner, added with local accents it makes it next to impossible to confirm which is the original. But we like to draw a sharp difference in our clan. Forms from TongBei are obvious.

Many forms, e.g MeiHuaDiTang, DaLiuHe are parts of TongBei. The nanyuan Tongbei quan is very closely related to XiaoTongbeiquan (known as DaLiuHeQuan now) contains the same major techniques but a different form, and as such is compatible.

The Renshou set often referred to as XiaoTongBi is of no relation to the rest of Tongbei. It should be TongBi as there is a connection with Monkey style. It appears in the nanyuan however there is a form in the XiYuan with a lot of crossover, the set is known as YuanHouQuan (monkey fist). This is just the common name, its proper name is RuanJiaChui. I believe this is the XiYuan equivilent of Renshou tongbi.

To make things more confusing there is also a TongBi quan meaning ‘Bronze arm’ boxing. The drift in names because of illiteracy and the similar sound of Chinese characters is a constant source of frustration to me.

Its a maze to try to discover these names, but forms are easily connected when we look at the techniques they contain. This is harder to do these days because of the mixing of so many clans in the current syllabus, but usually when finding the best version we see the character of its techniques.

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[QUOTE=SHemmati;1278269]i just know one form of xiyuan big Tong Bi quan, it may also have some such method to justify the name to be Tong Bei, meaning ‘through-the-back’. but, whatever called, Tong Bi or Bei or anything, these Shaolin forms have no technical, and as far as there’s documents, neither historical connection with the famous, non-Shaolin, Tong Bei quan.[/quote]

I don’t believe anyone said so, but what form do you mean? You’re probably talking about Tongbeiquan if you mean the standard often taught alongside Hongquan.

I know of Renshou Tongbiquan and a standard Shaolin Tongbiquan which RenDaHai’s shifu mentioned, saying it is also completely separate from Tongbeiquan. Don’t know if RenDaHai has gotten to it yet…? But the others are called Tongbeiquan, in Xiyuan and Nanyuan.

right, the same characters. but different meanings, so different names. like the case of Jin Gang, for Vajrapani and for diamond, the same characters, different meanings.

It doesn’t work like that. Vajra also means diamond. Jingang is just a Chinese translation of that. It’s one word, used in a name. We’re just looking at it in three different languages.

the old style created by FuJu or FuYu, though special, it actually meant to ‘guard the home.’ according to the quan pu it was created for the temple guardians. also, there’s one style mostly known in abbot Yongxin’s lineage with the actual meaning of ‘special.’ a short spectacular form. and, as said, many lineages have their ‘special’ styles.

Each sect’s Kanjiaquan is their style used to guard the sect; such as Xiaosihui in Zhenxu’s sect from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. You’re seeing different translations and thinking they are completely separate ideas. It’s one word in Chinese. The primary meaning is to guard the household. It also has the meaning of “special” skill because it’s the techniques used to guard each sect, like their specialty. Same idea.

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[QUOTE=SHemmati;1278269]the old style created by FuJu or FuYu, though special, it actually meant to ‘guard the home.’ according to the quan pu it was created for the temple guardians.[/QUOTE]

By the way, if you’re talking about the 13 road “Kanjiaquan” that Shi Dejun has videos out on on some of the sets, it has similarities to Renshou Tongbiquan, similar to the rest of the 8 “Luohan Shiba Shou” sets in the Encyclopedia, so must be the Kanjia style from the Tongbiquan of their sect. “Kanjiaquan” is not really a specific style name, but a title of its importance and position within a given sect. And originally the gate guards of the monastery trained different kinds of Tongbi/Tongbei, which would naturally also be called Kanjiaquan…

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Hi Guys

What is the Lohan style that Peng Chy Kim and Don F Draeger have in there book Shaolin Lohan Kung Fu is this System Luo Han Shi Ba Shou (Luo Han 18 Hands) ?

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[QUOTE=LFJ;1278282]By the way, if you’re talking about the 13 road “Kanjiaquan” that Shi Dejun has videos out on on some of the sets, it has similarities to Renshou Tongbiquan, similar to the rest of the 8 “Luohan Shiba Shou” sets in the Encyclopedia, so must be the Kanjia style from the Tongbiquan of their sect. “Kanjiaquan” is not really a specific style name, but a title of its importance and position within a given sect. And originally the gate guards of the monastery trained different kinds of Tongbi/Tongbei, which would naturally also be called Kanjiaquan…[/QUOTE]

For example our KanJia Quan is YeXing Quan (nightwalker fist) because invaders will come in at night in complete darkness so one must have techniques for such an occurance (this is somewhat less important post electricity but still interesting).

In MoGou village their KanJia Quan is LaoHong Quan, it contains some of the best techniques and it is short enough and easy enough for a whole village to learn.

Luotuoyuan village has Taizu ChangQuan as their KanJia Quan.

Even individual Wushu families here will have their own KanJia Quan, so there are many. However often the KanJia Quan will have an alternative name. 13 Lou KanJia Quan has many alternative names and versions.

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[QUOTE=Firehawk4;1278283]What is the Lohan style that Peng Chy Kim and Don F Draeger have in there book Shaolin Lohan Kung Fu is this System Luo Han Shi Ba Shou (Luo Han 18 Hands) ?[/QUOTE]

Probably not since they claim a southern style of Shaolin called Hood Khar Pai which I have never heard of before.

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1278273]Many forms, e.g MeiHuaDiTang, DaLiuHe are parts of TongBei.[/QUOTE]
add to this the 2nd form of Taizu Chang quan, at least it’s the 2nd form to Taizu Chang quan as mentioned by the Encyclopedia. so in your xiyuan sect the 3 forms of Liu Zhenhai’s so-called xiao Tong Bi quan are the Tong Bei quan. then what is the standard so-called da Tong Bi quan called there? Bi or Bei? i mean the standard Shaolin da Tong Bi quan, which should have 2 more forms there. this Shaolin standard da Tong Bi quan (or Bei) has a big technical share with Taizu Chang quan itself. i have some more words on this to be said in following posts.

The Renshou set often referred to as XiaoTongBi is of no relation to the rest of Tongbei. It should be TongBi as there is a connection with Monkey style. It appears in the nanyuan however there is a form in the XiYuan with a lot of crossover, the set is known as YuanHouQuan (monkey fist). This is just the common name, its proper name is RuanJiaChui. I believe this is the XiYuan equivilent of Renshou tongbi.

there’s a hou quan that is said to based on which this renshou Tong Bi qua has been created. it’s much similar to this renshou form. probably this yuan hou style you’ve seen is the same. to add to that, i’ve heard in Kaifeng they have a couple of Tong Bi Yuan (Tong Bi ape) quan forms, which is also similar to nanyuan Tong Bi quan. also, the northern and eastern courtyards(yuan’s) should have their tong bi/bei quans, cause it’s allegedly the most diversified Shaolin style.

…The drift in names because of illiteracy and the similar sound of Chinese characters is a constant source of frustration to me.

haha! right. even i’m not sure the Chinese people themselves exactly understand what they hear or read. to add to the frustration, i have to say that, right now, in your profile you ought to change the word (kong) to (zong), (chan zong pai) Chan school kung fu, is it this? that’s the Chinese language anyway, we have to put up with it in whole our lives.

[QUOTE=LFJ;1278280]I don’t believe anyone said so, but what form do you mean? You’re probably talking about Tongbeiquan if you mean the standard often taught alongside Hongquan.[/QUOTE]
no, right, nobody said that. i just had a point in that to notify the very difference between the non-Shaolin Daoist Tong Bei quan and the Shaolin style, whatever called Tong Bi or Bei. yes, the standard so-called da Tong Bi quan everyone knows. so it’s called Tong Bei quan! well. the Shaolin quan pu, which is from before the fire of 1928 and is said to have not been tampered with since then, calls it Tong Bi quan, it’s said by many sources to be Han Tong’s style. however, i add that i know several other old sources which call it Tong Bei quan. the style names always change from lineage to lineage, and the original names may had even been something else.
the names themselves are not so important, but when the name of two different styles is the same then that needs clarification or else, confusion occurs. this is the case we have with most the famous Shaolin styles, so i said i think this needs its own thread.

It doesn’t work like that. Vajra also means diamond. Jingang is just a Chinese translation of that. It’s one word, used in a name. We’re just looking at it in three different languages.

Each sect’s Kanjiaquan is their style used to guard the sect; such as Xiaosihui in Zhenxu’s sect from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. You’re seeing different translations and thinking they are completely separate ideas. It’s one word in Chinese. The primary meaning is to guard the household. It also has the meaning of “special” skill because it’s the techniques used to guard each sect, like their specialty. Same idea.

literally, yes it’s that. the Chinese tend to shorten the names. e.g., of Vajra in Shaolin kung fu we usually mean Vajrapani, Buddha’s powerful attendants, and the Vajra, the diamond, is the Vajrapani(s)'s weapon. the incident is, the Vajrapani(s) and the diamond are both powerful; this makes the two words reasonably interchangeable. kan jia for ‘guard the home’ and ‘special,’ yea, right. it also the way you said is interchangeable.

[QUOTE=LFJ;1278282]By the way, if you’re talking about the 13 road “Kanjiaquan” that Shi Dejun has videos out on…[/QUOTE]
since you mentioned Shi Dejun. he doesn’t do the form completely, there he drops out some cool stunts in the forms and simplifies parts of the rest. there’s somebody else from a northern style who have inherited this Kanjia quan under a different name. there’s his performance at the end of his instructional video, identical to the Encyclopedia: Shaolin Kan Jia quan, form 1 of 13 [by Liu Yi]

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i had a pictorial description on the 1st form of Luohan 18 hands (aka xiao si hui). i post it in the following posts, when turning back to its topic.

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[QUOTE=bawang;1278252]ba bu lian huan is absolutely from hua quan system.

lian huan quan was renamed from lian hua quan, which means lotus flower boxing. this came from white lotus/boxer rebellion. after white lotus got suppressed again name was changed.

lian hua quan is very recent creation and its poems mainly focuses on fighting europeans.[/QUOTE]
do you know about any relation, historical and/or technical, between ba bu lian huan and the lian hua(n) itself?

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[QUOTE=SHemmati;1278310]add to this the 2nd form of Taizu Chang quan, at least it’s the 2nd form to Taizu Chang quan as mentioned by the Encyclopedia. so in your xiyuan sect the 3 forms of Liu Zhenhai’s so-called xiao Tong Bi quan are the Tong Bei quan. then what is the standard so-called da Tong Bi quan called there? Bi or Bei? i mean the standard Shaolin da Tong Bi quan, which should have 2 more forms there. this Shaolin standard da Tong Bi quan (or Bei) has a big technical share with Taizu Chang quan itself. i have some more words on this to be said in following posts.

there’s a hou quan that is said to based on which this renshou Tong Bi qua has been created. it’s much similar to this renshou form. probably this yuan hou style you’ve seen is the same. to add to that, i’ve heard in Kaifeng they have a couple of Tong Bi Yuan (Tong Bi ape) quan forms, which is also similar to nanyuan Tong Bi quan. also, the northern and eastern courtyards(yuan’s) should have their tong bi/bei quans, cause it’s allegedly the most diversified Shaolin style.

haha! right. even i’m not sure the Chinese people themselves exactly understand what they hear or read. to add to the frustration, i have to say that, right now, in your profile you ought to change the word (kong) to (zong), (chan zong pai) Chan school kung fu, is it this? that’s the Chinese language anyway, we have to put up with it in whole our lives.

[/QUOTE]

The Standard DaTongbei is bei. Its the same style as the XiaoTongbei, they go together perfectly. Tongbei is shaolins most longfist style, though Shaolin often gets called longfist the vast majority is duanda and tieshenkao but Tongbei is long fist. This also goes together with the NanyuanDaTongbei that Deyang performs, looking closely you will see the overlap in techniques between NanyuanDatongbei and XiaoTongbei er lu (also known as Daliuhequan and perhaps erlutaizuchangquan but I would have to see the lyrics)

I am assuming Renshoutongbi (Bi) is related to RuanJiaChui but I can’t confirm this, its more a hunch.

Thats a reasonable guess, ChanZongPai would work, however it is specifically ChanKONG, i.e ‘Meditation on the void’.

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[QUOTE=SHemmati;1278310]the style names always change from lineage to lineage, and the original names may had even been something else.[/quote]

True, but we finally have things ironed out with our current naming. All those Da and Xiao forms by various names in Xiyuan are Tongbeiquan in RenDaHai’s sect. In Nanyuan there is Tongbeiquan with the Xiaosihui being its Kanjiaquan, and Renshou Tongbiquan, as they are named in my sect. So that has all been put to bed. There is just one other standard Shaolin Tongbiquan which RenDaHai’s shifu mentioned is separate from the above systems, but is “full arm” techniques. Maybe that’s their Xiyuan Tongbiquan, but I haven’t heard if he’s seen it or learned it yet…

there’s somebody else from a northern style who have inherited this Kanjia quan under a different name. there’s his performance at the end of his instructional video, identical to the Encyclopedia: Shaolin Kan Jia quan, form 1 of 13 [by Liu Yi]

Cool. He called it Xinggongquan. I looked it up. It’s said to have 10 sets and was previously just called Shaolinquan with no other name. But since Shaolin is too common and widespread it was given the name Xinggongquan. I definitely think it bears similarities to the so-called “Luohan Shiba Shou” sets in the Encyclopedia, which must be some sort or other of Tongbiquan. That’s my impression.

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[QUOTE=LFJ;1278323]RenDaHai’s shifu mentioned is separate from the above systems, but is “full arm” techniques. Maybe that’s their Xiyuan Tongbiquan, but I haven’t heard if he’s seen it or learned it yet…[/QUOTE]

Haven’t learned or seen it, just a few moves. There are too many sets that take priority over this one.

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Some info about the Hua Quan sets that entered into Shaolin Luohan quan

Jiazi Quan was an ancient Muslim martial art from western China that also was the basis from which the Muslim Cha Quan and Hua Quan systems in Shandong were developed from. Mi Zhong Quan also has a similar Jiazi Quan training set. Jiazi Quan’was also known as “Dajia Quan” - Large Frame Boxing, as was called the oldest branch of Meihua Zhuang. All three of these now widespread in Shandong styles originally came
from Western China, suggesting that there may be a common source to the foundational material of the various Muslim
practiced Shandong martial art styles. Meihua Zhuang also shares much with Liuhe Men, another Chinese Muslim
practiced martial art.

Hua Quan 18 Louhan Hands - Luoyang Long Men Connection
(Famous Xin Yi Quan practitioner) Ma Xueli lived in Luoyang city, which was very close to the Shaolin temple. Luoyang is known for many martial
arts styles. One such style that existed there from before Ji Longfeng’s time is called the “Long Men” () –
Dragon’s Gate or School from Shanxi, which is now practiced in Luoyang within the “Zhong Hua Si Mian Ba Fang
Tong Bei Quan” system. Long Men ancestor Wang Jiang (with his four apprentices), practiced this art secretly after
coming to Jun Tun village (Luoyang), from Hongdong County (Shanxi Province) during the early Ming era (around
1300). Thus, long before the formation of Xinyi Quan.
Later, the next generation (consisting of Wang Leng Zi, Wang Jia Zi, and Wang Er Jia) at some point exchanged
some of their skills with boxers from Shandong Province. They practiced a Long Men set called “Long Men Quan”
(Dragon Gate Fist) that is also practiced with the same exact movements by the Cai family lineage of “Hua () Quan”
– Glorious Boxing style, from Shandong province. This set is also practiced at Shaolin under the name “Luohan Shiba
Shou” – Luohan 18 Hands. It is a two person set. In the two person version of this routine, side 1 can be done with a
staff, side 2 with a knife or sword. It features the animal postures seen in Shandong Hua Quan, such as Eagle, Monkey,
Leopard, Tiger, Dragon, and others.

The opening five movements that correspond to these animals are very similar to the Five Elements movements
of Pi Quan, Zhuan Quan, Beng Quan, Pao Quan, and Heng Quan, which are foundational to Xinyi Quan / Xingyi
Quan. The first four postures correspond faithfully. Originally in ancient times there were only four elements used,
much later Heng (earth) was added. In Xing Yi, Heng (earth) is supposed to be all the other elements together as one,
so it is at the center of the four elements. This is true of the fifth and sixth postures, if done successively they indeed
correspond to the movements of Heng (earth) Quan as well. The rest of the postures correspond well to Dragon, Tiger,
Horse, Hawk, Swallow, and other animal movements seen in Xinyi and Xingyi. Being that this set, originally from Hua
Quan of Shandong, has been practiced in Luoyang for a few hundred years before Ji Longfeng’s art reached Ma Xueli
of Luoyang, and was preserved by local Luoyang Tongbei Quan practitioners, and strikingly shares some important
attributes with the Henan and Shanxi Xinyi based martial arts, its calls for more serious research to explore any
possible root relationship they share, especially since these styles all converge within Luoyang.