how not to fight a boxer

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

[QUOTE=YungChun;1072022]The “problem” is that it is much easier written than done AND that there is precious little evidence that many VT peeps are doing it regularly against decent boxers…[/QUOTE]

I’m not going to assume, so are you saying you are not able to close the gap with boxers with your WCK? Or just that WCK’s “problem” is that it doesn’t have this ability in the system in general? If the later, I would totally disagree.

For me, WCK should ‘work’ at ANY ‘range’ where contact can be made. If someone can hit me, then I can bridge with that attack on it’s way in. And, if I can bridge with the attack using proper structure, facing and leverage, then I have a greater chance of neutralizing it & setting up a advantageous position or my own. All with which I can now start to effect my opponent’s COG, lessening their chances of landing a strong follow-up attack as well as counter with hits of my own. To me, this is WCK.

It’s not about WCK vs. boxing range, or kicking range or vs. any particular style. There’s either stirking range or not. While yes, a kick might require me to use a different ‘technique’ over a punch and there might be different responses for a round punch vs a straight punch attack. In the end, it’s just an attack entering my box/space. And if I want the best chance of dealing with that attack, the above strategies or ‘rules’ apply - regardless the attack or style I’m up against. Things like leverage, facing, structure, energy awareness, etc don’t change just because my opponent did. This is WCK (how I see and train it anyway).

As far as evidence, the only evidence I look for is my own results in my own training. That’s all that should matter IMO

42

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1072245] If someone can hit me, then I can bridge with that attack on it’s way in.
[/QUOTE]

No, you can’t. And trying to “bridge” to an attack is extremely low percentage.

And, if I can bridge with the attack using proper structure, facing and leverage, then I have a greater chance of neutralizing it & setting up a advantageous position or my own. All with which I can now start to effect my opponent’s COG, lessening their chances of landing a strong follow-up attack as well as counter with hits of my own. To me, this is WCK.

That’s a great theory, only it won’t work like that. You will never be able to “bridge with the attack using proper structure, facing and leverage”-- that is a fantasy. His action is too fast, too unpredictable, etc.

It’s not about WCK vs. boxing range, or kicking range or vs. any particular style. There’s either stirking range or not. While yes, a kick might require me to use a different ‘technique’ over a punch and there might be different responses for a round punch vs a straight punch attack. In the end, it’s just an attack entering my box/space. And if I want the best chance of dealing with that attack, the above strategies or ‘rules’ apply - regardless the attack or style I’m up against. Things like leverage, facing, structure, energy awareness, etc don’t change just because my opponent did. This is WCK (how I see and train it anyway).

If you are in an opponent’s striking range, you won’t be able to stop him from hitting you unless he is a scrub.

As far as evidence, the only evidence I look for is my own results in my own training. That’s all that should matter IMO

That all depends on what that training is.

43

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1072236]According to Bruce Lee JKD is WC.[/QUOTE]

Really? Do you have a cite?

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1072237]WC is a win by any means necessary art. At least that’s what Yip Man said.[/QUOTE]

Really? Do you have a cite?

45

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1072252]

That all depends on what that training is.[/QUOTE]

When did results stop mattering?

46

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1072256]When did results stop mattering?[/QUOTE]

The results only matter if the testing is valid.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1072256]When did results stop mattering?[/QUOTE]

Results only matter if the testing is valid.

48

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1072245]For me, WCK should ‘work’ at ANY ‘range’ where contact can be made. If someone can hit me, then I can bridge with that attack on it’s way in. And, if I can bridge with the attack using proper structure, facing and leverage, then I have a greater chance of neutralizing it & setting up a advantageous position or my own. All with which I can now start to effect my opponent’s COG, lessening their chances of landing a strong follow-up attack as well as counter with hits of my own. To me, this is WCK.

It’s not about WCK vs. boxing range, or kicking range or vs. any particular style. There’s either stirking range or not. While yes, a kick might require me to use a different ‘technique’ over a punch and there might be different responses for a round punch vs a straight punch attack. In the end, it’s just an attack entering my box/space. And if I want the best chance of dealing with that attack, the above strategies or ‘rules’ apply - regardless the attack or style I’m up against. Things like leverage, facing, structure, energy awareness, etc don’t change just because my opponent did. This is WCK (how I see and train it anyway).[/QUOTE]

I agree!

        However the problem that most wing chun people face with boxers's is half way through this video when the narrator says "the problem most wing chun practioners have is when they tend to use trapping in a boxing invironment where distance is relatively great and punches are not committed" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74oxk65AZ4.

How would you deal with this situation when the attacker does not step in range close enough for you to hit or reach his head/body, when he is just staying at that borderline zone trying to draw out your counter attack by throwing uncommitted jabbing type attacks to create openings and set you up for his committed power shots, at which point he would then step in a little closer with his real attack once he exposes an opening?

49

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1072245]I’m not going to assume, so are you saying you are not able to close the gap with boxers with your WCK? Or just that WCK’s “problem” is that it doesn’t have this ability in the system in general? If the later, I would totally disagree.[/QUOTE]I think Jim stated his case quite clearly in his original post. It is down to an individual’s training and the kind of people they are training against. Along the lines of what Terence consistently posts (shock horror!) :eek:

[QUOTE=YungChun;1072008]Most VT folks have trouble entering because it’s not trained enough and most VT folks have much more trouble when the opponent is taller and has considerably longer reach.[/QUOTE]

50

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1072236]According to Bruce Lee JKD is WC.[/QUOTE]

Please post supporting documentation.

JKD as in JunFan was simply Bruce Lee’s method, which btw changed daily if not hourly…

Later JKD was formalized into JKD Concepts.. In the later case these concepts have nothing to do with a style.

Bruce at the end was anti style…he was in his honest expression stage…

51

[QUOTE=CFT;1072277]I think Jim stated his case quite clearly in his original post. [/QUOTE]

Thanks Chee I thought so… :slight_smile:

I wrote:

The “problem” is that it is much easier written than done AND that there is precious little evidence that many VT peeps are doing it regularly against decent boxers…

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1072245]
I’m not going to assume, so are you saying you are not able to close the gap with boxers with your WCK? Or just that WCK’s “problem” is that it doesn’t have this ability in the system in general?
[/quote]
I said what I wrote.. That it’s much easier to pay lip service to this kind of stuff..

And that not many VT people are training like boxers… Because if they were you wouldn’t hear the theory you’d see the fighting..

Most VT people are not actively fighting at all let alone with dozens of good boxers, I mean let’s try to keep this just a little real…

Most people don’t have access to LOT’S of good boxers… Most VTers are not fighting lots of good anythings…

52

Regarding JKD = WC.

Here is a post by John Smith, one of Wong Shun Leung’s students:

http://wongshunleung.takeforum.com/2006/04/13/jkd-and-wing-chun-how-they-differ/

Bruce Lee was really years ahead of his time. Yes his training developed as he had no one to coach him except himself. He was very proud of Chinese culture and of the gung fu that it had produced.

This needs to be saluted.

Sifu used to say that Bruce turned full circle from VT. Initially as you have indicated we has a VT man, but then left many of it’s principles, but as Sifu indicated that towards the end of his life he was returning to what VT already had.

53

I read that as a fudge.. Bruce may well have been using (returning to) all kinds of “things” but at the end his POV was anti-style regardless of what his methods were..

54

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1072256]When did results stop mattering?[/QUOTE]

The results only matter when the testing is valid.

55

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1072256]When did results stop mattering?[/QUOTE]

Why is it that I have replied to this post several times and they just keep disappearing? I didn’t post anything negative or provocative.

Results don’t matter when the testing isn’t valid.

That is true in all matters, not just martial arts.

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[QUOTE=CFT;1072277]I think Jim stated his case quite clearly in his original post. It is down to an individual’s training and the kind of people they are training against. Along the lines of what Terence consistently posts (shock horror!) :eek:[/QUOTE]

And I totally agree that who and how you train is important. Not sure your point?

57

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1072252]No, you can’t. And trying to “bridge” to an attack is extremely low percentage.[/QUOTE]

Only if you read ‘bridge’ as chasing hands. This is not how I mean it. But then, I don’t expect a moron like you to understand what I’m talking about. How many years did you waste not making WCK work again? 17+? yeah, like you’[d understand anything about WCK… :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1072252]That’s a great theory, only it won’t work like that. You will never be able to “bridge with the attack using proper structure, facing and leverage”-- that is a fantasy. His action is too fast, too unpredictable, etc. [/QUOTE]

Now you’re assuming I’m not talking from experience or that I’d try to match speed for speed. You have no clue what I’m talking about. Go troll someone else.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1072252]If you are in an opponent’s striking range, you won’t be able to stop him from hitting you unless he is a scrub. [/QUOTE]

Troll troll troll along…

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1072252]That all depends on what that training is.[/QUOTE]

You still talking? Go sit in the corner, gossip queen.

58

I don’t suggest “bridging” VS a Boxer unless you want to turn it into a clinch fight or grappling.
Boxing doesn’t lend itself to being “bridged” for the purpose of striking.
Of course there is no rule against it and I would assume that, training with good boxers and developing a way to bridge with boxers, that it would work well with most.
Still, boxing hand and footwork tend to nullify “bridging” very well, or at least this has been my experience.

59

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1072307]I don’t suggest “bridging” VS a Boxer unless you want to turn it into a clinch fight or grappling.
Boxing doesn’t lend itself to being “bridged” for the purpose of striking.
Of course there is no rule against it and I would assume that, training with good boxers and developing a way to bridge with boxers, that it would work well with most.
Still, boxing hand and footwork tend to nullify “bridging” very well, or at least this has been my experience.[/QUOTE]

Yup. A good boxer should not be underestimated. They can “squirm” and hit. They also understand leverage.
In a different way wrestlers also can adjust.

Takes good level wing chun to deal with them.

joy chaudhuri

60

[QUOTE=YungChun;1072281]I said what I wrote.. That it’s much easier to pay lip service to this kind of stuff..

And that not many VT people are training like boxers… Because if they were you wouldn’t hear the theory you’d see the fighting..

Most VT people are not actively fighting at all let alone with dozens of good boxers, I mean let’s try to keep this just a little real…

Most people don’t have access to LOT’S of good boxers… Most VTers are not fighting lots of good anythings…[/QUOTE]

That’s fine, but how do you know how ‘most VT people’ are training?
And I’m not trying to argue here, but really, what should we care how others that we don’t even know are training? Aren’t only our own skills in the given situation what matters? (unless we are also teaching, then the skills of our students matter)

Really though, my original reply was to Keith when he said this: The problem is closing the gap so that you can make good use of your WCK. Bruce Lee recognized this problem and I think it was one of the factors leading to the creation of JKD. If you want to kickbox with a WCK “flavor”, study some JKD! But don’t try to make WCK into something it is not…because it doesn’t work very well …as most of these clips on the internet will attest!!

And I’ll repeat, I don’t see this same ‘problem’ in WCK or in my training.
And, I don’t go by the little evidence you see, or that he sees on the internet, only my results are what count (at least to me). yeah, I’d agree, that a lot of the WCK you see in vids isn’t up to my fighting standards, but then I don’t look to the internet for validation that WCK works. And hopefully you’re not saying you do :wink: