???How much is enough???

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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OK, I know you’re supposed not to pay attention to insults, lies etc., I know that a good horse always leaves a trail of dust behind (as the saying goes in my homeland), I know that sticks and stones may break my bones, I know all about rubber and glue, but HOW MUCH IS REALLY ENOUGH?! When is it time (if ever) to make the other one put his fists where his mouth are?

Here’s the story in short: my sifu started his WC training in 1978. with mr. S (the instigator of WC in my country, under Leung Ting), but after a while grew dissatisfied and eventually became a student of WSL in 1987. Students of mr. S have since then been badmouthing my sifu, and we have learned to ignore them, but recently one of mr. S’s students goes around saying my sifu is “a clown”, “a coward”, “went from one teacher to another like a hyena”, “a liar”, “misrepresenting himself as a student of WSL”, “he can’t defend himself” (all exact quotes) and so on. To be honest, I KNOW things like that doesn’t matter, but I FEEL really nauseous… maybe I’m stupid, but I just can’t understand why some people do that (and if that’s stupidity, I prefer to remain stupid).

Would you pay him a visit and have a little talk (I mean talk, not looking for trouble) with him? What would it take to make you ‘angry’, and would you ‘champion’ your school? Have any of you had any similar experiences?

Thanks for all inputs.

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From greater minds than mine …

“Slander is a vice that strikes a double blow; wounding both him that commits, and him against whom it is committed.” - Bernard Joseph Saurin

“In taking revenge, a man is but even with his enemy; but in passing it over, he is superior.” - Sir Francis Bacon

“Truth is generally the best vindication against slander.” - Abraham Lincoln

“If someone says something bad about you, you must live so they won’t believe it …” - Author unknown

“Have patience awhile; slanders are not long-lived. Truth is the child of time; erelong she shall appear to vindicate thee.” - Immanuel Kant

“Two wrongs don’t make a right, but they make a good excuse.” - Thomas Szasz

“Living well is the best revenge.” - George Herbert

A story of two men with “profound senses of duty and justice”: William Anderson Hatfield & Randolph McCoy

Peace be with you and yours.

  • kj
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Quiet man- contemplating criticism to see of there any merits and then ignoring critics who have no merit- is a good path includinga wing chun path.

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Quiet man- contemplating criticism to see of there any merits and then ignoring critics who have no merit- is a good path includinga wing chun path.

Self Reliance.

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My .02 cents

quiet man:

In 1996 someone from another wing chun lineage purposely moved his class literally next door to mine (5’ away)…in a place that rented rooms by the hour for martial arts, dance classes, acting classes, etc.

Before he moved in - he first placed a spy in my school and found out that I was scheduled to have double hernia surgery in about 6 weeks. He also immediately tried to intimidate/provoke me by taking my signs down around the place and putting up his own in the exact spot…when I called him on the phone…he backed off…but only for awhile.

Exactly three weeks after my surgery he comes into my room while I’m teaching (and obviously not actually "doing " much of anything, ie.- like throwing kicks, for example)…He brings one of his students with him…and sits down in a chair.

When I asked him what he wanted he told me that he wanted his student to see the “wrong way” of doing wing chun…and then proceeded to challenge me to a fight…called me a coward when I declined (even though I reminded him that I knew that “he knew” about my surgery)…and then - right in front of my students…says that my sifu, William Cheung, “is a piece of 5hit.”

Exactly one week later we went into his room while he was teaching and a fair fight took place (someone from my lineage did the fighting)…and this character was beaten to the point where he actually needed some medical attention and went to a nearby hospital. (Nothing serious…but enough to require atention).

I also told him in no uncertain terms that when I was fully healed (in approximately 6-8 months) - I would be back - and this time he would have to fight me.

He had me arrested and I spent the next 8 months or so fighting off assault charges and appeared in court six times (he kept not showing up…finally the District Attorney dropped the charges against me, and a discussion actually took place between my attorney, the D.A. and the judge about possibly even pressing perjury charges aginst this guy - which we decided against, because by then…enough was enough).

By the way, the character is question and myself were immediately thrown out of the place where we were teaching after the incident - and by the time all legal proceedings were over he actually left the country - although I believe he has subsequently returned.

Morale of the story? Even with all the trouble - I would gladly do it all again! There IS a point past which people have to be “called out” and made to pay for their transgressions - and he had clearly crossed over that line.

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I for one am saddened whenever I see a reference to the NY affair or its predecessor in Germany. Both IMO are bad examples of wing chun in protocol and in substance (I have seen the available pics)with varying spins put on both incidents.

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Huh?

Since when did the laws in you’re country let you to “call” people out and “make them pay” instead of calling the police or a lawyer? Are martial artsists above the laws made for everyone else?

:eek:

:mad:

:frowning:

:confused:

:rolleyes:

I don’t get it.

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This sort of stuff goes on all the time … anyone who is any good or gets any sort of profile will have detractors wanting to cut them down. Smarter people realise you can’t raise yourself by trying to drag others down to your level. If people sauy this to your face, just remind them how pathetic their behaviour is.

Let your results do the talking, success of your school, etc. If you really care, enter tournaments and invite this guy’s students to do the same. As Victor’s story attests, no good ever comes of challenge matches or calling people out.

To add to KJ’s list, an old Chinese proverb: “Only a fool listens to the braying of the a$$”.

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Fresh:

Call a lawyer or a policeman because this guy did what he did to insult and disrupt me, my sifu, and, and my classes???!!!

Are you serious?

“Excuse me officer, but this guy called my sifu a ‘piece of 5hit’ right in front of my students…would you please arrest him for that?”

“Hello…Mr. lawyer…I want to sue this guy who put a spy in my school, falsely accused me of being a coward, and called my sifu a piece of…”

Yeah, right!

The moron got just what he deserved - a beating.

You know…I’ve never publicly said this before - regarding that incident. But it was a particlarly difficult time in my life - and when he pulled those antics he was really doing it to the wrong guy at the wrong time:

The trouble became visible when the man in question moved his school next door to mine on September 3 rd, and started removing my signs from the bulletin boards…the double hernia surgery occurred on September 23 rd…My beloved father died in my arms from heart failure on October 1 ft…and this clown walked into my class looking for trouble on October 14th.

I was in no mood to put up with any 5hit from someone like him…no mood at all.

You know…there’s a saying that I’ve followed for many years now:

“Return good for good; for evil - JUSTICE.”

-Confucius

This guy clearly deserved to be taught the kind of lesson that no lawyer or policeman would have administered.

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!!

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
This guy clearly deserved to be taught the kind of lesson that no lawyer or policeman would have administered.

So basically you are saying its okay to be a vigillante. Or maybe its just okay for YOU to be a vigilante. :rolleyes: How else are we supposed to read the kinds of comments you re making?

It might seem stupid to tell the police what the guy said. To me it seems stupid not to tell your lawyer about the signs and harrassment before going to batter someone. It also seems stupid to let someone like that into your school. And if he came in when you told him to keep out then you could have called the police and had more to tell them than just the guy said mean things. You might be proud of what you did but you could have handled it different. If things had gone a little different the day you barged into his school you could have landed in jail too. Too much chest thumping over a lot of bad judgement in my opinion. He is probably still thumping his chest too. :frowning:

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Fresh,

You need to calm down, man.

Those of us who watched this unfold over the internet know what a complete a-hole the other party was being at the time.

Victor paid the consequences of his actions. The other guy basically pulled every trick in the book for months on end to get a confrontation with TWC instructors from which he thought they’d back down, and he got one and they didn’t.

Victor tried to talk it out beforehand with the guy -even bought him a beer - but he didn’t want to know. Believe me, people have been shot for a lot less in the USA.

Personally, I’m torn between knowing that the fight wasn’t right, but putting up with someone trying to pi$$ on your sincere efforts and livelihood over something as pointless and stupid as lineage rivalry certainly isn’t either. But -

Unless you’ve walked a mile in the guy’s shoes and had to put up with a smilar situation, which was quite obviously extremely vexatious to those of us who witnessed it, you shouldn’t judge him.

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Fresh:

I guess we just do things a little differently in New York City. I’m born, raised, and still live - in Brooklyn.

Yes…I am satisfied with what I did.

This is not basket-weaving that I’ve been doing/teaching all these years. It’s fighting…plain and simple. And sometimes risking jail-time and/or injury just comes with the turf.

Let me tell you about the first streetfight I ever had…back in 1956. I was 6 years old. And that’s not a misprint. I said 6…

And I just had plastic surgery on my right hand - as I was born with six fingers on that hand (and three of them were connected together). So the surgery eliminated one of the fingers…which required skin grafts from my stomach and thigh - and 200 stitches in my hand and fingers. I was wearing a sling on my arm and a cast on my hand.

A crazy kid from down the street (my age) punched the cast on my hand after a verbal argument about “who knows what” - and the blood started to appear right through the cast. I started to cry and ran into the house. My father, upon hearing what happened - told me to go back outside and fight him with the other hand…

Which I did…punching, kicking, biting, scratching…whatever - until some other adult on the block came along and broke it up.

That’s where I come, Fresh.

To each his own.

And Andrew: Thank you.

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Thanks, guys. I know myself: in a day or two I won’t even remember this #$%&, but in the meantime it really helps to hear from someone who’s had similar experiences.

Although, kj, that story was a bit long and… I just couldn’t be bothered to read it :wink: :smiley:
([SIZE=1]Just kidding. Thank you, really[/SIZE])

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Originally posted by anerlich
This sort of stuff goes on all the time … anyone who is any good or gets any sort of profile will have detractors wanting to cut them down. To add to KJ’s list, an old Chinese proverb: “Only a fool listens to the braying of the a$$”.

In australia we acknowledge this very phenomenom and have even named it…we call it" tall poppy syndrome"…common amongst peers and best dealt with by means of of diligent independant activity ;)…

to re-quote Gene Vhing “find your peace in practice” :):slight_smile:

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Victor,

If you are saying that you think you handled the situation the best way possible, then you are not representing Grandmaster Cheung very well. In all the years of your training you feel it all comes down to fighting ? I would hope that after as many years training as you have I would have a better attitude than that, I certainly would not justify my actions by mentioning a rough childhood neighbourhood. I thought the central core of training was not fighting unless you have to and to pass the responsible, mature, lets face it, civilised attitude on to students. Victor, I have to say I have really enjoyed your technical postings, despite being from the “other” lineage, but this attitude is disappointing.

Regards,
Adrian

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Adrian:

I appreciate your honesty…and although I’m not one to turn the other cheek - I can honestly tell you that I have never gone around looking for a fight; and whenever someone joined (or tried to join) my school with that attitude…

he was gone quickly.

I don’t like bullies - and I certainly don’t endorse violence for it’s own sake. Many times in my life people have challenged or tried to provoke me in some way…and my response was to ignore it or walk away.

But there are exceptions to that “rule”…you can’t tie your own hands in advance. That’s just foolish, IMO.

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Fresh, AdrianUK

I’m sorry to bring this attitude to this thread but IMO you’re both being *****s. You’ve obviously not been through some of the things Victor has (otherwise I would hope to have seen more understanding), but I have and can say that from what both he and anerlich have recounted what ensued was unfortunate but especially given the circumstances, just.

I wouldn’t try to justify your actions, you clearly chose to take the high road, but like the thread it titled, there is a point where enough is enough.

Take care

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I enjoy these interesting posts! I would like to share with you all my personal story that really change my life ever since. It was Cambodia, 1978 and I was imprisoned with my father after failing to make a successful escape to Thailand. Life was tough in the stinking confined cell, and several repeated attempts to escape were made by various “traitors” there. To prevent prisoner’s escape, the communist prison commandant ruled that two prisoners are assigned together when going out chopping wood. Should one prisoner inmate fail to yell alerting the guards of the other’s attempt to sneak away, his life is forfeited. So one day, a small boy did just that and the guards caught the other unlucky fellow escapee. They beat the man severely with rifle’s butts, broke several of his teeth, and tossed him back to the cell broken in body and spirit. At the times I thought that that was it. These two guys will be mortal enemies for life. Later during the same night, the small boy quietly got close to the other man lying on the floor and offered him a spoon of soy sauce to go with the rice as a peace offering. The other man said nothing. He took the sauce and ate hungrily. Perhaps that might be his last meal and he needs to survive for a darker future ahead.

I can’t say much about the lesson here to anyone. One thing I know - all things ever since are so insignificant in comparison to the drama that I witnessed.

Regards,
PH

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That IS an amazing (but sad) story, Paul.

You’re right…all this other stuff we’ve been talking about is nothing compared to the situation you described - including you and your father’s ordeal.

For all the people in your story…it was a life-or-death situation.

The situations/experiences I described from my life don’t even come close by comparison.

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I will share the best advice on this I was ever given.

Intelligent people will find the facts and come to the proper conclusion. Idiots, well… who cares what the idiots do?