How many of YM's students fought??

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

I understand Victor’s oft repeated position- but my own position remains different- but our stances, footwork , strategy and tactics are also likely to be different.

On the point made by someone else- many good wing chun folks are not on this list, and not on U tube and don’t spend time convincing forum skeptics.

IMO- there are no fixed ranges-you can adjust your footwork depending on the range, angle and distance and line relationships between the opponents.

On Phil’s question-

Quite a few people I know have tested their skills in full contact and in self defense and against
“resisting” opponents..

joy chaudhuri

22

[QUOTE=Pacman;1003240]i am one of those people. perhaps the only one, but i am open minded.

i asked if someone could please point out in the videos one instance where any WC fighting principle is used, because i see none.

and before someone says “loy lau hui sung”, that means more than just being aggressive or else any unskilled fighter who just rushes in could be said to follow that principle.[/QUOTE]
People who know TWC can clearly see it here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/sifupr#p/u/8/M1bSkRY3iWI

23

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1003259]. . . . . some longer range type moves that don’t really exist in wing chun, per se… [/QUOTE]
They do exist. :slight_smile:

24

Yes, some do exist. You’re right, and you and I know very well about one particular wing chun system that has more longer range concepts and moves than most other systems, now don’t we?

But my contention is that against a really skilled boxer/kickboxer/Thai boxer type - there are limitations within EVERY wing chun system, per se…about getting to its preferred range and dominating the fight.

The single biggest reason, imo, why so many wing chun fighters (regardless of lineage) are often accused of looking like boxers, kickboxers, or JKD guys; that is, those that spar/fight frequently, or go into competitions.

They look that way because quite often that’s what it’s going to take to get in close enough to do a more “conventional” looking wing chun.

25

[QUOTE=Pacman;1003267]
aside from my own personally experience and ability to name the moves that exist, it doesn’t make sense logically, assuming that the developers have half a brain, that would develop an art where it cant be utilized except in a predetermined situation
{snip}
being specific, there are many WC lineages that turn the body when punching and do not stand square towards the opponent but have a slight lead off stance. This gives it the reach equivalent in boxing.
[/QUOTE]

I agree for the most part.. I never deal with ideas in such a ridged manner that would stop me from “blading” if I want or need to.

When you are on the inside square facing for use of VT methods is perfectly fine, but on the outside if you need to lead–do it. Folks who need to move a certain way and decide not to because they might break a rule are lost.

Also as you said there are loads of outside tools and tactics in all VT.. The centerline concepts can be applied on the outside as well as the inside albeit with changes. There are loads of leg moves and bridge tools as well that can assist in closing.

Most of all “we” the fighter has movement and tactics that IMO go beyond style.. When you compete in any kind of sport fighting all fighters must adapt these kinds of ubiquitous tactics of timing, deception, movement, cadence, trickery, etc..

In short I think it’s up to the fighter to use whatever be it from VT or from another art.. If you want to use pure VT that’s cool and if you want to be eclectic that’s cool too but I see this as strictly a personal choice neither being superior.

26

Pardon my ignorance of WCK, but in the MYJ set there are many instances where you are not facing square, but are positioned (if even momentarally) in a lead stance. Of course, when the rear hand comes into play, the body does indeed turn and face-but don’t we all to apply torquing power? This seems to have been ignored? Yes? No?

27

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1003297]Yes, some do exist. You’re right, and you and I know very well about one particular wing chun system that has more longer range concepts and moves than most other systems, now don’t we?

But my contention is that against a really skilled boxer/kickboxer/Thai boxer type - there are limitations within EVERY wing chun system, per se…about getting to its preferred range and dominating the fight.

The single biggest reason, imo, why so many wing chun fighters (regardless of lineage) are often accused of looking like boxers, kickboxers, or JKD guys; that is, those that spar/fight frequently, or go into competitions.

They look that way because quite often that’s what it’s going to take to get in close enough to do a more “conventional” looking wing chun.[/QUOTE]
I guess our WC isn’t “conventional” then. :wink: Plus we don’t need boxing to work against boxers.
You know who we train with right? I can pick you up one weekend, bring you to South Jersey and drive you back to the city so you can meet the people I’m talking about. We haven’t hung out in a while anyway.

28

i know we’ve talked about this many times but i really dont like the blanket statement that wing chun does not have the ability to let the practitioner get close

I don’t think it’s that so much as the notion that WC’s forte is in the range where you can contact the opponent with both hands. Most WC I’ve seen certainly has at least some tools for getting into this preferred range with minimum risk and maximum cover. Certainly better tools than some grapplers did in the early UFC days (run at the guy and try to clinch and hope he doesn’t knock you out on the way in).

If that is accepted (and it’s up to each of us to decide that) the next question is whether to use the WC tools to close range and develop these to a high level, or whether applying tools from another source might be more effective at long range (or at clinch range).

IMO Wing Chun is not final or complete. It is a framework, not a cage.

29

Do you mean something like this, Phil?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt3rOtqnnDk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzlDFKNoJ2M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtbeFKeJpkc&feature=PlayList&p=77949D1DB771F9A9&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=58

…

Or perhaps this recent one of Adrian Luke Sinclair? (Who started out as my student in TWC back in the day, and who now trains TWC with Rahsun Herkul…pick this one up at 1:40 into the vid):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNo4Gas2A4I

IS THIS WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT?

30

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1003322]Do you mean something like this, Phil?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt3rOtqnnDk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzlDFKNoJ2M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtbeFKeJpkc&feature=PlayList&p=77949D1DB771F9A9&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=58

…

Or perhaps this recent one of Adrian Luke Sinclair? (Who started out as my student in TWC back in the day…pick this one up at 1:40 into the vid):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNo4Gas2A4I

IS THIS WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT?[/QUOTE]

No, I meant with the Keith’s guys that train with the pro boxer I told you about.
It would be good to hang out with your kung fu brothers anyway. Also, Sifu will in in NJ around the 20th of April and he’s doing seminar on the 24th and 25th. You coming?

31

The topic is how many of YM’s students fought… sometimes I think of these questions as “How many of YM’s students were juvenile delinquents with emotional/insecurity problems?..How many thugs did YM teach?..or perhaps, How many of YM’s students have committed aggravated assault?”

Many times these forums with their talking of street effectiveness or effectiveness in fighting is stupid. One studies martial arts, and in the eyes of the law, if you really fight with it, you are committing aggravated assault, especially if you have gone beyond self defense.

And the chat sometimes here gets real silly, taunts, challenges, wanting to duel, libel, verbal assault - one wonders if we live in the old West or 21st century.

32

Another way to look at it is:

“How many of you commit crimes and don’t want to be a law abiding citizen?” :slight_smile:

33

Totally.. They should all be rounded up and whipped with a wet noodle…:p:o;):smiley:

34

you do not need to be a criminal to use your Wing Chun, in fact there are many careers and professions that require the use of force. At this time it is very easy for weekend warriors to test themselves fairly safely at other schools, inter school sparring has become common at contact schools. In the past schools had matches as well but they are not the “death matches” on roof tops that many made them out to be. They had judges and ref’s and people to step in for participants best interests if the need should arise. There always have been students that want to try things on unsuspecting easy marks… maybe they choose that because they feel it is safer than other trained people? Their skill level will of course reflect their lack of quality experience. Who would you rather train with.. R. Couture or the MMA fan that beats up drunken college students at night clubs?

35

sounds like the propestive of someone that doesn’t fight and is making excuses as to why he hasn’t.

36

Sounds like someone who is fantasizing themselves as a “fighter”, lacks emotional maturity, and doesn’t realize the consequences of their actions… and a poor speller. Perhaps too many blows to the head in “realistic training”. :slight_smile:

I’m not saying there is no time to fight, or that if you do it you shouldn’t win or that one should train unrealistically.

Many of Yip Man’s early students who did fight, fought against other martial arts enthusiasts or gangsters. But many of the real fights could have been avoided…had HK in the 1950’s been tougher on the youth, there would have been greater consequences.

Gang rape in prisons happen. So as much bravado as you got, even tigers have to sleep.

37

If people want to fight there are many venues open to them to do that, even with limited or no rules even.
That was not always the case.
People fight more now then they ever did because it is more socially acceptble to do so.

38

The number 3

From what im told, for many of the earlier students you needed three fights under your belt to progress.

There were times that my sifu and WSL would go with Lok Yiu to other schools to fight, many of which were competing schools in the same area.

My Sifu was asked on more than one occasion by Ip to go to test another Wing Chun schools sifu as he was sharing cool aid and making claims about his VT vs Ip Man style VT. (History doesnt change much there lol)

From all accounts there were no arrests as all were consenting adults and many were known in the local community by police as being Martial artists.

Some were full contact most were no head shots.

39

[QUOTE=chusauli;1004041]Sounds like someone who is fantasizing themselves as a “fighter”, lacks emotional maturity, and doesn’t realize the consequences of their actions… and a poor speller. Perhaps too many blows to the head in “realistic training”. :slight_smile:

I’m not saying there is no time to fight, or that if you do it you shouldn’t win or that one should train unrealistically.

Many of Yip Man’s early students who did fight, fought against other martial arts enthusiasts or gangsters. But many of the real fights could have been avoided…had HK in the 1950’s been tougher on the youth, there would have been greater consequences.

Gang rape in prisons happen. So as much bravado as you got, even tigers have to sleep.[/QUOTE]

Wow. I think the insecurity may just be a character trait you suffer from, not benny.

Sweat at training to avoid bleeding on the streets. YOu have a very twisted view of the world if you believe that taking necessary steps to defend yourself, your family or the citizen who cannot defend themselves without grabbing a gun or a blade is an aggravated assault.

Fighting is not always assault, nor is the person who fights always a juvenile delinquent or a criminal. Benny is right in his assessment that your justification of not testing the effectiveness of your training in REAL combat sounds more like someone trying to justify their lack of willingness to fight, or their utter cowardice.

Unless you have pressure tested the gross motor skills, and the application of them how on earth can you ever be confidant that they will work in a life or death situation??

You draw a long bow to link a fight to a potential gang rape in prison. I’m not saying they don’t happen, but it seems as though you have been watching far too many episodes of OZ, and have been convinced that it is a true reflection of what goes on in prison. If you end up in prison, you can always choose solitary confinement.

There was a scroll on the wall of our school which said, (i paraphrase, the exact wording escapes me) “Unless you are prepared not only to fight, but to fight and win you can never truly defend yourself.”

It’s not about wanting to fight. It’s about the realisation that in order to make the tools work for you when you need them, you need to know the intricacies of their application.

40

[QUOTE=Liddel;1004149]From what im told, for many of the earlier students you needed three fights under your belt to progress.

There were times that my sifu and WSL would go with Lok Yiu to other schools to fight, many of which were competing schools in the same area.

My Sifu was asked on more than one occasion by Ip to go to test another Wing Chun schools sifu as he was sharing cool aid and making claims about his VT vs Ip Man style VT. (History doesnt change much there lol)
From all accounts there were no arrests as all were consenting adults and many were known in the local community by police as being Martial artists.

Some were full contact most were no head shots.[/QUOTE]

Drew,

Just curious, what other Wing Chun schools were in Hong Kong around that time that weren’t associated with Yip Man, I thought Yip brought it out of china and was the first? Besides Weng Chun and that clan.

James