Greetings all!
I;d like to ask the community… does any one know the exact amount of animals in the Song Shan style of Shaolin? I dont think its 5 animals like some other styles.
Is it 12?
When mean Song shan, I mean the Shaolin style that features Xiao Hong quan, Qi xin Quan, Da Hong Quan, Tong Bei Quan, Liu He Quan.. etc etc…
Any ideas? Excuse my ignorance I am a newbie!
peace
Hello,
Thats a difficult question. Most peoples experience of shaolin is seeing the big performance shows, and in these they use a lot of animal like forms, frog, scorpion, tiger, eagle e.t.c However these do not represent the traditional kung fu. Truth be told I have no idea where a lot of these performances come from.
In terms of the traditional kung fu there is not a system of animals so to speak. There are many forms of Tiger fist for example (hei hu quan, bai hu quan, hu pu quan, meng hu quan etc) But as a rule they don’t look especially like a Tiger, other than using a few tiger claws. Many forms have individual stances mimicking an animal, but the whole form does not. There are snake movements in some forms but there is no form using only snake. We have a five animal fist, but it is just a short form, not a whole style.
Often shaolin lineages will have a mantis form or two, but this differs wildly from school to school and is likely a mantis form their family picked up at some point, rather than one created at shaolin. There is a family of shaolin eagle claw with many forms, but again it doesn’t look that much like an eagle, and that is shaolin style but not necesserily from shaolin temple. Scorpion, frog and Dog, we have excercises for these things but I have never seen a complete traditional form. THere is a Dragon style in shaolin with 4 forms, but it is only dragon in name and doesn’t really have dragon like techniques. There are some leopard forms but again in name. Lots of techniques are named for a chicken or a crane, but only individual moves.
Monkey however is different. Shaolin definatly has its own monkey styles, although they have almost completely been replaced by modern performances, the traditional monkey does at least mimick a monkey to some extent.
In summary shaolin has a lot, but they are not really based on the character of the animal like in the southern forms. They tend just to be named after the animal. Only really Tiger and Monkey have forms here that you could really see is tiger or monkey.
In the pre-Ming dynasty material, such as Rou Quan, there are no forms based on animals, except for the Ape Monkey Set (18 postures).
There are a few movements that named after animals that are the same as the ones that the ancient Da Hong Quan (Big Swan or Vast Fist) uses in its posture nams that are found within this ancient Shaolin material:
The Shaolin Luohan 18 Hands sets of 8 routines have animals that are ONLY found in one other system: Bagua Zhang.
These are: Unicorn, Bear, Hawk/Falcon, Rooster, Tiger, Snake, Phoenix, Dragon, Eagle, Crane.
The post-Ming era Shaolin sets (Wu Quan, Luohan Quan, etc.) have:
the classic five animals: Dragon, Tiger, Snake, Crane, Leopard
and also these:
Mantis, Eagle, Horse, Monkey, Swallow, Sparrowhawk, Rooster, Phoenix, Tai Bird, Ox (Buffalo), Lion, and a few others (elephant?).
There is a very long 13 Claws set that is considered to be from Bai Yufeng’s time that features almost all the clawed animals.
2 no! 3. no! wait… aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
Thoughts?
mmm
So there isnt any set amount of animals that Song Shan shaolin ( at the temple ) advises on?
For this discussion do you think it could be said that there might be 2 groups of animals taught close to or at the temple today ?
a traditional set of animals
and a
modern set of animals
?
And is there any relationship to - Kalaripayattu ?
[QUOTE=thewutangmonk;964707]mmm
So there isnt any set amount of animals that Song Shan shaolin ( at the temple ) advises on?
For this discussion do you think it could be said that there might be 2 groups of animals taught close to or at the temple today ?
a traditional set of animals
and a
modern set of animals
?
And is there any relationship to - Kalaripayattu ?[/QUOTE]
song shan shaolin has a curriculum of ten sets (not to be confused with the ten sets of bak sil lum if you are familiar with those).
I’m sure there are others here who can speak to this better than I, but I would say, the focus on animal imitation in martial practice is NOT the focus of their wushu program whatever it is inside the temple.
[QUOTE=thewutangmonk;964707]mmm
So there isnt any set amount of animals that Song Shan shaolin ( at the temple ) advises on?
For this discussion do you think it could be said that there might be 2 groups of animals taught close to or at the temple today ?
a traditional set of animals
and a
modern set of animals
?
And is there any relationship to - Kalaripayattu ?[/QUOTE]
song shan shaolin has a curriculum of ten sets (not to be confused with the ten sets of bak sil lum if you are familiar with those).
I’m sure there are others here who can speak to this better than I, but I would say, the focus on animal imitation in martial practice is NOT the focus of their wushu program whatever it is inside the temple.
as for kalari, no, there is not a relationship between the two. kalari is kalari and shaolin is shaolin, karate is karate, boxing is boxing etc etc. They have all developed indepndently of each other. Nowadays, one can give an eye to different arts, but in the 1500 years of shaolin, I really don’t think there is anything to do with kalari of western India.
[QUOTE=thewutangmonk;964707]mmm
So there isnt any set amount of animals that Song Shan shaolin ( at the temple ) advises on?
For this discussion do you think it could be said that there might be 2 groups of animals taught close to or at the temple today ?
a traditional set of animals
and a
modern set of animals
?
And is there any relationship to - Kalaripayattu ?[/QUOTE]
here’s what happened exactly:
Shaolin lost the forms.
One main 5 animals branch comes from out of Yi Guan, who was a student of Baiyufeng and Jue Yuan, during the end times of the Ming dynasty, Yi travelled south and met up with a Ming general named Choi, who was an uncle of the Ming emperor. This Choi became the founder of the Choi Gar style, and also makes an influence on the Choi Li Fut style. THESE southern styles have preserved the Five Animals routines, but they have of course changed over time to fit with southern martial art theories.
Back in the north, there are remnants of the original 5 animal material. Now remember it wasn’t called 5 Animals originally, it was called Wu Quan, 5 Fists. The animal spirit was incorporated into the movements, BUT so were other aspects of other styles, such as Hong Quan, Hua Quan (transforming fists), Rou Quan, and the most important part of all, the internal nei gong material.
Practitioners of this material that were students of Bai Yufeng, Li Sou, and Jue Yuan split into different branches.
One branch became known as Luohan Quan, and the Five animals are built into the movements, but there are no specific animals routines.
One branch also practiced Taizu Chang Quan, and one of their students, Taoist Priest Dong Cheng, later became the founder of Tong Bi and later still Tong Bei Quan.
One branch merged their sets and became known as The Five Animals Eight Methods style, Wu Xing Ba Fa, which does one very long form.
One branch preserved a series of routines. This style is now called Jingang Quan sometimes. They have a 13 Claws set that is very long and some other animal sets.
Monks who left Shaolin between the 1600s and the 1900s spread into the countryside and taught many people Shaolin Quan. So, there are folk countryside Shaolin Quan practitioners that still do Animals sets, these sets were brought BACK into Shaolin after 1980. The Shaolin encyclopedia shows a lot of these sets:
Tiger, Leopard, Snake, and Dragon sets still exist. Crane sets are lost. they might have went south to Fujian and also east to Sichuan, where they do Crane sets and there is a connection to Northern Shaolin teachings.
So, these animal sets can be found.
All those weird animal sets that are done in exhibition, and any combined “Shaolin Five Animals” sets are most often modern wushu concoctions.
These are the 5 branches that stayed in Henan.
One branch went to Shandong province when the Qing dynasty took over. They became known as the Shaolin Mei Hua Men style. They still teach a Xiao Wu Xing set, Small Five Animals, and various other animal sets, such as Tiger sets, and so on. They even do a Mantis Claw set. This material became spread out in Shandong and mixed with their local styles such as MeiHua Zhuang, Ba Shan Fan, MiZong Quan, Hua Quan (means Glorious Boxing, not Flower Boxing or Transforming Boxing), and Cha Quan.
One branch as I said before went to southern China and became known as the Five Animals and Five Families over times as the material spread all over the south. So, if you want to see something close to the old Shaolin Five Animals sets, then look at the ones that the Choy Gar and Choy Lee Fut styles do. Choy is spelled many ways: Choi, Zhu, Chu, Choy, etc.
There are other small branches that went outside of Song Shan Shaolin to other parts of China that do some animal sets. Most of them always have Small Five Animals in common.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;964755]here’s what happened exactly:
[/QUOTE]
This sounds odd, which Dong Cheng ? Which period ? and how did it end up as a component of Tong Bei Quan ?
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;964755]
3. One branch merged their sets and became known as The Five Animals Eight Methods style, Wu Xing Ba Fa, which does one very long form.
Are you sure of these two ?? Wu Xing Ba Fa is actually a part of Jing Gang Quan ? The 13 Claws is actually from different line altogether from Shandong.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;964755]
5. Monks who left Shaolin between the 1600s and the 1900s spread into the countryside and taught many people Shaolin Quan. So, there are folk countryside Shaolin Quan practitioners that still do Animals sets, these sets were brought BACK into Shaolin after 1980. The Shaolin encyclopedia shows a lot of these sets:
Tiger, Leopard, Snake, and Dragon sets still exist. Crane sets are lost. they might have went south to Fujian and also east to Sichuan, where they do Crane sets and there is a connection to Northern Shaolin teachings.
So, these animal sets can be found.
[/QUOTE]
1600-1900 is an extremely long period and does not pinpoint to anything. Careful with Sichuan as many of the arts are actually derived from Fujian (as well as Hubei and Jiangxi arts). Only a few Emei branches like Zhao Men are pertaining to the North.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;964755]
These are the 5 branches that stayed in Henan.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;964755]
7. One branch as I said before went to southern China and became known as the Five Animals and Five Families over times as the material spread all over the south. So, if you want to see something close to the old Shaolin Five Animals sets, then look at the ones that the Choy Gar and Choy Lee Fut styles do. Choy is spelled many ways: Choi, Zhu, Chu, Choy, etc.
Not sure why the focus on Cai Jia (Choy Ga) Quan when the style does not even have an emphasis on the Animals compared to the other Hong, Liu styles…
Have you left out the important Fujian (Min Bei and Min Nan) where the emphasis on Animal based styles (not just crane) is the greatest amongst all areas of China ???
Songshan Shaolin doesn’t have a ten set curriculum, David Jamieson. There many more core Songshan Shaolin sets then just ten. Abbot Shi Yong Xin’s 1999 book series outlined a core of sixteen.
[QUOTE=shaolinexecutioner;966818]Songshan Shaolin doesn’t have a ten set curriculum, David Jamieson. There many more core Songshan Shaolin sets then just ten. Abbot Shi Yong Xin’s 1999 book series outlined a core of sixteen.[/QUOTE]
more accurately he’s referring to the “10 famous sets”, rather than core or a curriculum.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;964755]here’s what happened exactly:
Shaolin lost the forms.
One main 5 animals branch comes from out of Yi Guan, who was a student of Baiyufeng and Jue Yuan, during the end times of the Ming dynasty, Yi travelled south and met up with a Ming general named Choi, who was an uncle of the Ming emperor. This Choi became the founder of the Choi Gar style, and also makes an influence on the Choi Li Fut style. THESE southern styles have preserved the Five Animals routines, but they have of course changed over time to fit with southern martial art theories.
Back in the north, there are remnants of the original 5 animal material. Now remember it wasn’t called 5 Animals originally, it was called Wu Quan, 5 Fists. The animal spirit was incorporated into the movements, BUT so were other aspects of other styles, such as Hong Quan, Hua Quan (transforming fists), Rou Quan, and the most important part of all, the internal nei gong material.
Practitioners of this material that were students of Bai Yufeng, Li Sou, and Jue Yuan split into different branches.
One branch became known as Luohan Quan, and the Five animals are built into the movements, but there are no specific animals routines.
One branch also practiced Taizu Chang Quan, and one of their students, Taoist Priest Dong Cheng, later became the founder of Tong Bi and later still Tong Bei Quan.
One branch merged their sets and became known as The Five Animals Eight Methods style, Wu Xing Ba Fa, which does one very long form.
One branch preserved a series of routines. This style is now called Jingang Quan sometimes. They have a 13 Claws set that is very long and some other animal sets.
Monks who left Shaolin between the 1600s and the 1900s spread into the countryside and taught many people Shaolin Quan. So, there are folk countryside Shaolin Quan practitioners that still do Animals sets, these sets were brought BACK into Shaolin after 1980. The Shaolin encyclopedia shows a lot of these sets:
Tiger, Leopard, Snake, and Dragon sets still exist. Crane sets are lost. they might have went south to Fujian and also east to Sichuan, where they do Crane sets and there is a connection to Northern Shaolin teachings.
So, these animal sets can be found.
All those weird animal sets that are done in exhibition, and any combined “Shaolin Five Animals” sets are most often modern wushu concoctions.
These are the 5 branches that stayed in Henan.
One branch went to Shandong province when the Qing dynasty took over. They became known as the Shaolin Mei Hua Men style. They still teach a Xiao Wu Xing set, Small Five Animals, and various other animal sets, such as Tiger sets, and so on. They even do a Mantis Claw set. This material became spread out in Shandong and mixed with their local styles such as MeiHua Zhuang, Ba Shan Fan, MiZong Quan, Hua Quan (means Glorious Boxing, not Flower Boxing or Transforming Boxing), and Cha Quan.
One branch as I said before went to southern China and became known as the Five Animals and Five Families over times as the material spread all over the south. So, if you want to see something close to the old Shaolin Five Animals sets, then look at the ones that the Choy Gar and Choy Lee Fut styles do. Choy is spelled many ways: Choi, Zhu, Chu, Choy, etc.
There are other small branches that went outside of Song Shan Shaolin to other parts of China that do some animal sets. Most of them always have Small Five Animals in common.[/QUOTE]
Interesting post.
In our tradition there are 10 animals: dragon, tiger, leopard, crane, snake (representing the wuxing ) plus pelican(ti), monkey, elephant, mustang and buffalo. These are not separate sets but built into 10 hand sets and 2 weapon sets, which are called by different names such as the ‘dragon tiger sets’, and ‘12 dragon steps’. The term is not used in connection with Bai Yufeng sets but rather “shou” (). I’ve only seen “” used by southern styles.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;964755]here’s what happened exactly:
Shaolin lost the forms.
One main 5 animals branch comes from out of Yi Guan, who was a student of Baiyufeng and Jue Yuan, during the end times of the Ming dynasty, Yi travelled south and met up with a Ming general named Choi, who was an uncle of the Ming emperor. This Choi became the founder of the Choi Gar style, and also makes an influence on the Choi Li Fut style. THESE southern styles have preserved the Five Animals routines, but they have of course changed over time to fit with southern martial art theories.
Back in the north, there are remnants of the original 5 animal material. Now remember it wasn’t called 5 Animals originally, it was called Wu Quan, 5 Fists. The animal spirit was incorporated into the movements, BUT so were other aspects of other styles, such as Hong Quan, Hua Quan (transforming fists), Rou Quan, and the most important part of all, the internal nei gong material.
Practitioners of this material that were students of Bai Yufeng, Li Sou, and Jue Yuan split into different branches.
One branch became known as Luohan Quan, and the Five animals are built into the movements, but there are no specific animals routines.
One branch also practiced Taizu Chang Quan, and one of their students, Taoist Priest Dong Cheng, later became the founder of Tong Bi and later still Tong Bei Quan.
One branch merged their sets and became known as The Five Animals Eight Methods style, Wu Xing Ba Fa, which does one very long form.
One branch preserved a series of routines. This style is now called Jingang Quan sometimes. They have a 13 Claws set that is very long and some other animal sets.
Monks who left Shaolin between the 1600s and the 1900s spread into the countryside and taught many people Shaolin Quan. So, there are folk countryside Shaolin Quan practitioners that still do Animals sets, these sets were brought BACK into Shaolin after 1980. The Shaolin encyclopedia shows a lot of these sets:
Tiger, Leopard, Snake, and Dragon sets still exist. Crane sets are lost. they might have went south to Fujian and also east to Sichuan, where they do Crane sets and there is a connection to Northern Shaolin teachings.
So, these animal sets can be found.
All those weird animal sets that are done in exhibition, and any combined “Shaolin Five Animals” sets are most often modern wushu concoctions.
These are the 5 branches that stayed in Henan.
One branch went to Shandong province when the Qing dynasty took over. They became known as the Shaolin Mei Hua Men style. They still teach a Xiao Wu Xing set, Small Five Animals, and various other animal sets, such as Tiger sets, and so on. They even do a Mantis Claw set. This material became spread out in Shandong and mixed with their local styles such as MeiHua Zhuang, Ba Shan Fan, MiZong Quan, Hua Quan (means Glorious Boxing, not Flower Boxing or Transforming Boxing), and Cha Quan.
One branch as I said before went to southern China and became known as the Five Animals and Five Families over times as the material spread all over the south. So, if you want to see something close to the old Shaolin Five Animals sets, then look at the ones that the Choy Gar and Choy Lee Fut styles do. Choy is spelled many ways: Choi, Zhu, Chu, Choy, etc.
There are other small branches that went outside of Song Shan Shaolin to other parts of China that do some animal sets. Most of them always have Small Five Animals in common.[/QUOTE]
In our tradition there are 10 animals with with the 5 attacking hand shapes: dragon, tiger, leopard, crane, snake (representing the wuxing ). In addition to those are these animal imitation maneuver: pelican(ti), monkey, elephant, mustang and buffalo. These are not separate sets but built into 10 hand sets. The term is not used by us in connection with Bai Yufeng sets but rather “shou” () because the ‘fist’ is not used any of these sets.