how does your ground game change when strikes are added?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
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How does your ground game change when moving from straight grappling to MMA?

Are there certain positions in grappling that you favour that in MMA you avoid, do your tactics and your hierarchy of positions change when training MMA compared to normal grappling?

Personally my game does not change that much, but the tactics I employ and the positions/submissions I favour do change.

I have always been a top position player (like all heavyweights lol) and during straight grappling I prefer side control over mount, I find it easier to control my opponent and move around him if necessary and get submissions from here where as in mount in pure grappling I find it harder to get submissions and its easier for my opponent to defend: to keep his elbows in and move his hips. Now in MMA with strikes allowed I much prefer the mount (unless elbows are allowed striking from side control just doesn’t seem to do much for me). It’s much easier to open up the opponents arms and gain a submission or get his back when striking from the mount.

From the bottom as with straight grappling I am looking to establish guard if I am put on my back, but once guard is established I look to tie up (usually an overhook and head control), sweep or get back to my feet rather than look for submissions. if I do look for a submission it tends to be guillotine or kimura, I find the risk of going for an arm bar or triangle and getting passed is for me too great when strikes are involved, I am much more interested in reversing the position or simply getting back to my feet

The escapes from mount for me also change when strikes come into the equation, I like laying on my side using my elbow/arm and opposite leg to drag one of his legs back into my half guard and then escape from there, but this sucks when getting hit in the head and half guard is one of the positions I try to avoid in MMA as I find it to be to easy to take punishment when caught in it, so for me bridging to disrupt his base and negate his power become very important.

Just wanted to see how others grappling games change when strikes are added

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a lot similar to what you posted.

Not much difference in my game changing with strikes involved except the stand up portion to ground with the clinch. on the ground i favor the side mount as well. being a heavy weight myself. :slight_smile:

some of the positions i favor in side mount are allowed in MMA more so. The crusifix position with G&P works well for me being able to control the arm with the leg and going for kamora or pounding them in the head. But generally I’ll try for the pass to full mount from the side mount at some point.

I employ a similar tactic for being mounted as you stated. I try a lot with the outside sweeps on the legs. but if i’m getting pounded in the face, its a little more difficult.

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Yep it sh*tty playing bottom when you are a heavy weight.

My clinch/takedown game changes too when strikes are allowed, I shoot a higher double as in MMA the stances tend to be higher and its easier to get there hands up by throwing punches at their heads lol, although having said that I tend to look for the body lock for takedowns in MMA as getting stuck under a sprawl when someone is hitting you sucks.

Forgot about the crusfix that is nice controlling position in MMA, but I find mount gives me more leverage for the strikes and allows me to do more damage

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“How does your ground game change when strikes are added?”

***DRAMATICALLY. You still need the basic wrestling/grappling skills, but just about everything changes once strikes are added, and from just about any and every possible position.

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I think your defense becomes more prevailent when strikes are added to the ground especially when on bottom. But being on the bottom is about defense and you should always be aware or more so when striking is involved.

how bout striking from the bottom? do you think it should be a focus or do you think that your time should be focused more on escape or lock/sub. ?

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[QUOTE=Frost;973804]How does your ground game change when moving from straight grappling to MMA?

Are there certain positions in grappling that you favour that in MMA you avoid, do your tactics and your hierarchy of positions change when training MMA compared to normal grappling?

Personally my game does not change that much, but the tactics I employ and the positions/submissions I favour do change.

I have always been a top position player (like all heavyweights lol) and during straight grappling I prefer side control over mount, I find it easier to control my opponent and move around him if necessary and get submissions from here where as in mount in pure grappling I find it harder to get submissions and its easier for my opponent to defend: to keep his elbows in and move his hips. Now in MMA with strikes allowed I much prefer the mount (unless elbows are allowed striking from side control just doesn’t seem to do much for me). It’s much easier to open up the opponents arms and gain a submission or get his back when striking from the mount.

From the bottom as with straight grappling I am looking to establish guard if I am put on my back, but once guard is established I look to tie up (usually an overhook and head control), sweep or get back to my feet rather than look for submissions. if I do look for a submission it tends to be guillotine or kimura, I find the risk of going for an arm bar or triangle and getting passed is for me too great when strikes are involved, I am much more interested in reversing the position or simply getting back to my feet

The escapes from mount for me also change when strikes come into the equation, I like laying on my side using my elbow/arm and opposite leg to drag one of his legs back into my half guard and then escape from there, but this sucks when getting hit in the head and half guard is one of the positions I try to avoid in MMA as I find it to be to easy to take punishment when caught in it, so for me bridging to disrupt his base and negate his power become very important.

Just wanted to see how others grappling games change when strikes are added[/QUOTE]

some things i found I changed.. I have tried to work takedowns more.. even though i suck at them. So I’m trying to get away from pulling guard… sitting guard ect.. ( mma bad idea JMO).

When I do add strikes I don’t use open guard stuff.. but no gi I play with open guard and wrist control/tricep control. I’m using allot of quarter guard at the moment Gi/no gi..

My guard game when closed has gotten very complicated, and I’m becoming very proud of it. I have done allot of research into Nogera, 10thplanet, and many other distinct styles of guards.. I use allot of clinching, underhooks, ARMDRAGS!, and I’m big into octopus guard. I have found that my closed guard works very well when I let people strike.. but the only problem is I often never stay in guard. I’m always looking for a sweep or taking the persons back.. OR they start to slam, I standup so no more guard..

halfguard.. I just pull guard.. I’m a little scared to be in that position with someone punching me.. gi no gi.. i do allot..

top game… :smiley: I am a big fan of side control, and knees.. , only problem is nobody wants to let you train with knees…

I avoid the mount and back for fear that I will end up on the bottom again.. so stay in side and knee of belly, Northsouth ect..

I’m trying avoid making quick decisions,and keep to safe strategies..

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[QUOTE=Frost;973850]Yep it sh*tty playing bottom when you are a heavy weight.

My clinch/takedown game changes too when strikes are allowed, I shoot a higher double as in MMA the stances tend to be higher and its easier to get there hands up by throwing punches at their heads lol, although having said that I tend to look for the body lock for takedowns in MMA as getting stuck under a sprawl when someone is hitting you sucks.

Forgot about the crusfix that is nice controlling position in MMA, but I find mount gives me more leverage for the strikes and allows me to do more damage[/QUOTE]

bottom sucks as a heavy weight..? really Bottom sucks a light weight, When I have a 250 pound muscle bound army soldier ontop of me.. that sucks.. (I’m a little guy 155)..

Big guys have the luxury of being able to do so much more with little effort.. The bottom game is perfect for big people.. JMO

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[QUOTE=monji112000;974424]some things i found I changed.. I have tried to work takedowns more.. even though i suck at them. So I’m trying to get away from pulling guard… sitting guard ect.. ( mma bad idea JMO).

When I do add strikes I don’t use open guard stuff.. but no gi I play with open guard and wrist control/tricep control. I’m using allot of quarter guard at the moment Gi/no gi..

My guard game when closed has gotten very complicated, and I’m becoming very proud of it. I have done allot of research into Nogera, 10thplanet, and many other distinct styles of guards.. I use allot of clinching, underhooks, ARMDRAGS!, and I’m big into octopus guard. I have found that my closed guard works very well when I let people strike.. but the only problem is I often never stay in guard. I’m always looking for a sweep or taking the persons back.. OR they start to slam, I standup so no more guard..

halfguard.. I just pull guard.. I’m a little scared to be in that position with someone punching me.. gi no gi.. i do allot..

top game… :smiley: I am a big fan of side control, and knees.. , only problem is nobody wants to let you train with knees…

I avoid the mount and back for fear that I will end up on the bottom again.. so stay in side and knee of belly, Northsouth ect..

I’m trying avoid making quick decisions,and keep to safe strategies..[/QUOTE]

yep my coach is big into the using arm drags, underhooks, overhooks etc with the guard and it does make it fun :o)

I find that people when allowed to strike in the guard do tend to give you stuff, they will sometimes give up base or safety position or leave one arm in one arm out when striking, but rarely do they do this is straight grappling… but the paradox is as you say you don’t tend to look for the subs even if they are there more, you look to escape/reverse the position or get to your feet.

I am a lot scared of using half guard in MMA, I watched matt Thornton years ago show how to wreck someone from this position, and have also seen Dan Hardy destroy guys here, no thanks

Knees from side control to the head I like, knees to the body unless my arm is blocking his nearside hip I find just give him space to pull guard

Yep MMA ground does seem to be about less going for subs, or stuff on the fly and more about damage limitation and going with the safe options

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[QUOTE=monji112000;974425]bottom sucks as a heavy weight..? really Bottom sucks a light weight, When I have a 250 pound muscle bound army soldier ontop of me.. that sucks.. (I’m a little guy 155)..

Big guys have the luxury of being able to do so much more with little effort.. The bottom game is perfect for big people.. JMO[/QUOTE]

Bottom sucks as a heavyweight as we get to play with heavy weights on a more regular basis and in competition
Bottom is great for a big guy against a little guy, but then is so virtually every position if you are equally matched and I outweigh you by about 100 pounds :o)
:smiley:

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[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;974419]I think your defense becomes more prevailent when strikes are added to the ground especially when on bottom. But being on the bottom is about defense and you should always be aware or more so when striking is involved.

how bout striking from the bottom? do you think it should be a focus or do you think that your time should be focused more on escape or lock/sub. ?[/QUOTE]

Quite right the bottom does become much more about defence and risk reward when strikes are added

Strikes from the bottom? I take it you mean from inside guard? I wouldn’t strike from any other position personally I would be looking to escape, (even if I have half guard). But from guard I do like to use short punches to the side of the head/ear to enable me to set up the triangle or a high guard …. Punch his ear/side of head he covers control his wrist push it in and climb the legs up to high guard, or pit stop. I also like short elbows from the bottom, and I think you should train them just in case you need to use them or see the opportunity to do so….. But the problem is the guy on top can get much more leverage in his strikes and can do much more damage so I think even having said all that I would probably look to escape/sweep.

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[QUOTE=Frost;974432]Bottom sucks as a heavyweight as we get to play with heavy weights on a more regular basis and in competition
Bottom is great for a big guy against a little guy, but then is so virtually every position if you are equally matched and I outweigh you by about 100 pounds :o)
:D[/QUOTE]

when weight is even of course you lose your advantage.. but guess what?? Chances are you will have a large advantage over other equally weighted guys, simple because they often do not have the experience of dealing with equal weighted guys who have great guards.

You gain the training and skill, who says you need to use it competition. No need to pull guard, but you have the option to escape and play guard of some sort..

I know a few big guys who are bottom plays and just dominate other big guys in competition simple because the other guys don’t get training partners who can simulate that scenario.. JMO

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[QUOTE=Frost;974434]Quite right the bottom does become much more about defence and risk reward when strikes are added

Strikes from the bottom? I take it you mean from inside guard? I wouldnt strike from any other position personally I would be looking to escape, (even if I have half guard). But from guard I do like to use short punches to the side of the head/ear to enable me to set up the triangle or a high guard . Punch his ear/side of head he covers control his wrist push it in and climb the legs up to high guard, or pit stop. I also like short elbows from the bottom, and I think you should train them just in case you need to use them or see the opportunity to do so.. But the problem is the guy on top can get much more leverage in his strikes and can do much more damage so I think even having said all that I would probably look to escape/sweep.[/QUOTE]

you miss understood me, I mean dealing with punches from the bottom and mostly giving knees from side (when I am ontop). I do like hammer fists to the face from quarter guard.. You can really jack up the oponents base from this position and avoid punches.. The only problem is keeping control of the trapped hand.. without the gi it gets hard.. but if they are wearing mma gloves its not that bad.. I also use a tricep grip from that position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04UJAZULjSc

again I’m telling people use this in a fight or even in MMA.. its just something I’m playing with for FUN.

of I forgot one position I’m trying to workinto the mix from halfguard that I found works with people punching you..

stoner control.. I find that when people start thinking of punching you you can sometimes get the chance to get into this position..

nice leg lock from here.. and its a safe leg lock.. that doesn’t put you in a crappy position..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1tIzC2FIfg

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[QUOTE=monji112000;974436]when weight is even of course you lose your advantage.. but guess what?? Chances are you will have a large advantage over other equally weighted guys, simple because they often do not have the experience of dealing with equal weighted guys who have great guards.

You gain the training and skill, who says you need to use it competition. No need to pull guard, but you have the option to escape and play guard of some sort..

I know a few big guys who are bottom plays and just dominate other big guys in competition simple because the other guys don’t get training partners who can simulate that scenario.. JMO[/QUOTE]

Don’t get me wrong I train guard and like it, but I have competed at under 90kg, and now over 100kg and it is different with a heavyweight in the guard.

also something’s you can’t do physically do as a heavy as well as a lightweight can, hips movement becomes a little slower, leg dexterity is not the same…its just a trade off I suppose… but if you look at heavyweights in MMA the percentage with good guards is much less than it is at the other weights (not saying they are not there but there are less of them than at other weights)

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[QUOTE=monji112000;974439]you miss understood me, I mean dealing with punches from the bottom and mostly giving knees from side (when I am ontop). I do like hammer fists to the face from quarter guard.. You can really jack up the oponents base from this position and avoid punches.. The only problem is keeping control of the trapped hand.. without the gi it gets hard.. but if they are wearing mma gloves its not that bad.. I also use a tricep grip from that position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04UJAZULjSc

again I’m telling people use this in a fight or even in MMA.. its just something I’m playing with for FUN.[/QUOTE]

sorry i think it was dragon76 who asked about striking from the bottom as opposed to escapeing should have

thanks for the vid will check it out when i get home, and nothing wrong with training stuff for fun we all do it :smiley:

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[QUOTE=Frost;974440]Don’t get me wrong I train guard and like it, but I have competed at under 90kg, and now over 100kg and it is different with a heavyweight in the guard.

also something’s you can’t do physically do as a heavy as well as a lightweight can, hips movement becomes a little slower, leg dexterity is not the same…its just a trade off I suppose… but if you look at heavyweights in MMA the percentage with good guards is much less than it is at the other weights (not saying they are not there but there are less of them than at other weights)[/QUOTE]

all the more reason to have a solid guard. Put it this way, if you go out there in a fight (MMA) and don’t have a solid guard game at the LEAST.. your pretty ****ing stupid. The guard is one of those positions that can get you hurt or save you. Knowing the ins and out .. just means you have more options.

Leg flexibility, movement, ect.. is all possible at any size. Did you see my pic of me and Rolles gracie? The guy is a giant.. great movement, flexibility (oh and a pretty sick guard game), leg dexterity..

its a skill learned/improved like anything else..

its the worst thing in the world to be a one dementional top game fighter.. I witnessed a Division 1 top in the country greco roman wrestler dominate a guy in the fight only to get destroyed on the bottom. poor guy.. but I its just like someone not being able to strike going into mma..
cough (marcelo garcia) cough (shinya aoki) cough cough.. :smiley: (my two fav guys too)..

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Mmmmm, the guard…

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;974454]Mmmmm, the guard…
[/QUOTE]

Doesn’t relate.. but it does.. in a way. It relates more to top game fighters who have no bottom game..
Josh Barnet competing in Gi BJJ. I can’t score these things well.. but I can’t see how he won.. did he get a advantage??? or maybe that sweep at the end was counted..??
I love his strong man omoplata escape..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9rk8SM8Rdo

I’ll see if I can find more of his matches..