. . . when someone isn’t using WCK principles or concepts?
And, can you determine if someone is using only some WCK principles or concepts? For example, could you say he is onlu sing 45% of WCK principles and concepts?
WSL would ask you to attack him…then he would step backwards to see if you followed and delivered an unrelenting attack .
concept, to attack as a defensive response.
Using techniques allowing this to happen…so every action has to be an attacking action, strikes have to have the duality of simultaneous strike & angled deflection arm positions [ slt] along a position that can be defended at the same time [centerline] as you tactically maneuver to a flank by motion along a perimeter line before entry [knife]
using parries and energy that moves suddenly to, but not across the c-line [ pole] to displace arms/poles on the centerline…this way you dont break the line and make a circle around an extended arm, exchanging blows .
your question is kind of like " how long is a piece of string " 45 % ?
I use whatever I need fighting guys…I have done thai, judo, wrestling, knife , gun etc… when you fight you use it all in parts…some guys I shoved out of bars using shuffle stepping alone , who would know but me ? others I dragged out by their collars using balance control , a by -product of chi-sao…couldnt see it ? Gone into head/neck / arm locks when I have group fights and go down to the floor of a nightclub along with other bouncers… used low thai kicks to groins when the motion and positions of a fight will only allow that one action to get the guy as he is open…
fighting is like a mechanic going into a garage and using everything around you to get a job done , if you dont have the tool you use you experience to create one for the specific job at hand…you may only use it once in your lifetime…
I sometimes feel that when people say their life passed in front of their eyes under extreme stress situations , its the brain doing a memory dump of the everything you know to help you survive …not give up… never give up.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;990723]. . . when someone isn’t using WCK principles or concepts?
And, can you determine if someone is using only some WCK principles or concepts? For example, could you say he is onlu sing 45% of WCK principles and concepts?[/QUOTE]
You can tell if someone is using the guiding principles of a style generally by how they’re using it. Even boxing and muay thai and sanshou and judo and BJJ have concepts they use.
This is a tough question. I got tired of typing to I just put down a few basic things. Some people are of the mindset that if you won that it was good Wing Chun and if you lost then it was bad Wing Chun. My problem with that sort of mentality is that winning does not qualify something as Wing Chun.
In street fights, I like to see the notion of the “stop hit” taken to a high level. I like to see a general attempt to arrest the opponents movement. My belief is that a solid Wing Chun man should be able to deal with a street fighter in a manner that makes people wonder if a fight really occurred.
As far as general technique, you would expect to see:
A preference for the vertical fist.
Straights that are straight and down the centerline. I see some people/ styles that tend to throw their straights off kilter?
I expect to see attempts at trapping and/or standing grappling. In that vein, I like to see a parrying at range.
I expect to see an understanding of how to shift weight in a stance.
I like to see effective use of the wu sao working with the man sao.
I like to see the centerline defended by movement banging back and forth is not preferable.
Volume punching
I don’t necessarily favor attacking over counter punching per say. Although, I want to see aggressiveness when putting together strikes.
Also, I don’t really weight one thing over another. It is important that everything on that list and not be up to an acceptable level.
[QUOTE=Vankuen;990768]You can tell if someone is using the guiding principles of a style generally by how they’re using it. Even boxing and muay thai and sanshou and judo and BJJ have concepts they use.[/QUOTE]
You can tell if someone is using boxing or MT or judo or BJJ or whatever when they are using continually the tools of that particular art.
My question is how do you know what when someone is using the guiding principles of the art and not just the tools?
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;990770]This is a tough question. I got tired of typing to I just put down a few basic things. Some people are of the mindset that if you won that it was good Wing Chun and if you lost then it was bad Wing Chun. My problem with that sort of mentality is that winning does not qualify something as Wing Chun.
In street fights, I like to see the notion of the “stop hit” taken to a high level. I like to see a general attempt to arrest the opponents movement. My belief is that a solid Wing Chun man should be able to deal with a street fighter in a manner that makes people wonder if a fight really occurred.
As far as general technique, you would expect to see:
A preference for the vertical fist.
Straights that are straight and down the centerline. I see some people/ styles that tend to throw their straights off kilter?
I expect to see attempts at trapping and/or standing grappling. In that vein, I like to see a parrying at range.
I expect to see an understanding of how to shift weight in a stance.
I like to see effective use of the wu sao working with the man sao.
I like to see the centerline defended by movement banging back and forth is not preferable.
Volume punching
I don’t necessarily favor attacking over counter punching per say. Although, I want to see aggressiveness when putting together strikes.[/QUOTE]
I think it worth commenting on that you repeatedly say "I like to see . . . ". You are not seeing concepts, you are seeing actions. These are actions that you characterize as good WCK. Couldn’t you just say that you would like to see a person successfully using nothing but WCK movements/actions, the movements/actions we learn in the forms, dummy, and drills?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;990813]I think it worth commenting on that you repeatedly say "I like to see . . . ". You are not seeing concepts, you are seeing actions. These are actions that you characterize as good WCK. Couldn’t you just say that you would like to see a person successfully using nothing but WCK movements/actions, the movements/actions we learn in the forms, dummy, and drills?[/QUOTE]
That’s probably accurate. I really didn’t want to just put it that simply because people get too much into “style points.” I think that this is especially the case if they aren’t used to looking at real-time fighting.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;990723]. . . when someone isn’t using WCK principles or concepts?
And, can you determine if someone is using only some WCK principles or concepts? For example, could you say he is onlu sing 45% of WCK principles and concepts?[/QUOTE]
My WC is using what works to efficiently get the job done as quickly and simply regardless of what Terence thinks. I PM’d you some more. Get back to me.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;990812]You can tell if someone is using boxing or MT or judo or BJJ or whatever when they are using continually the tools of that particular art.
My question is how do you know what when someone is using the guiding principles of the art and not just the tools?[/QUOTE]
Really its quite simple. To make things less convoluted…lets say that Wing Chun’s ONLY guiding principle/concept/strategy is to always press the opponent and keep contact of the bridge or closer.
If you see the wing chun fighter doing that…then they are using the said guiding principle. If you do not…then they are not. You’re never going to have an exact percentage because there’s no way to quantify it unless you film the fight and then count the minutes of that person using the said principle and dividing it by the total minutes of the fight.
What was the point of your question?
You could say occupying/using the line, economy of motion/energy, use of position and structure in WCK tools, actions… Employing an unbroken line of force..
[QUOTE=Vankuen;990915]Really its quite simple. To make things less convoluted…lets say that Wing Chun’s ONLY guiding principle/concept/strategy is to always press the opponent and keep contact of the bridge or closer.
[/QUOTE]
As I see it, that’s not a principle but rather WCK’s approach to fighting – to control while striking (which requires contact). Sort of like saying BJJ’s approach is to control the opponent on the ground while looking for submissions, that’s not a principle but a strategic approach.
If you see the wing chun fighter doing that…then they are using the said guiding principle. If you do not…then they are not. You’re never going to have an exact percentage because there’s no way to quantify it unless you film the fight and then count the minutes of that person using the said principle and dividing it by the total minutes of the fight.
What was the point of your question?
Well, what I’m getting at is that many people talk about all kinds of WCK principles and concepts, and my question is how can we know when people are using WCK’s concepts or not?
As I see it, to see WCK princples and concepts in action, you need to see a person actually using WCK – and that means using the movements/actions of WCK – the tools of WCK – in fighting as they are the physical embodiment of the WCK concepts and principles. You don’t express WCK principles and concepts by doing something other than WCK.
Or, to put it another way, the principles and concepts of WCK are heuritics for successfully applying (fighting with) the WCK skills/tools.
So how can you tell if someone is using WCK principles and concepts? The answer is that they are fighting and using continual WCK movement. When they stop using wCK movement, they stop using WCK, and they stop using the principles and concepts of WCK.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;990968]As I see it, that’s not a principle but rather WCK’s approach to fighting – to control while striking (which requires contact). Sort of like saying BJJ’s approach is to control the opponent on the ground while looking for submissions, that’s not a principle but a strategic approach.
Well, what I’m getting at is that many people talk about all kinds of WCK principles and concepts, and my question is how can we know when people are using WCK’s concepts or not?
As I see it, to see WCK princples and concepts in action, you need to see a person actually using WCK – and that means using the movements/actions of WCK – the tools of WCK – in fighting as they are the physical embodiment of the WCK concepts and principles. You don’t express WCK principles and concepts by doing something other than WCK.
Or, to put it another way, the principles and concepts of WCK are heuritics for successfully applying (fighting with) the WCK skills/tools.
So how can you tell if someone is using WCK principles and concepts? The answer is that they are fighting and using continual WCK movement. When they stop using wCK movement, they stop using WCK, and they stop using the principles and concepts of WCK.[/QUOTE]
I see. Well that’s pretty much what the intent of most of the replies were imo. It’s assumed that the wing chun person would be using wing chun tools, since after all they are a wing chun person. In addition to the said strategy of course
But to me a rule of thumb / hueristic / concept / principle / strategy is generally the same thing in fighting. No matter which word you use…they all guide the person in the chosen actions to be taken based on the end goal.
Kung Fooey
When a good wing chun artist fights, you won’t be able to tell if he is using wc concepts or principles and not even techniques, you should not be able to recognize wing chun.
[QUOTE=Roy D. Anthony;992862]When a good wing chun artist fights, you won’t be able to tell if he is using wc concepts or principles and not even techniques, you should not be able to recognize wing chun.[/QUOTE]
That is my standard against the street fighter, but I don’t think that can be a realistic standard against a strong opponent.
Enlightenment
Enlightenment is not achieved , it is realized!!!
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;992868]That is my standard against the street fighter, but I don’t think that can be a realistic standard against a strong opponent.[/QUOTE]
Can a street fighter be a strong opponent?
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;992877]Can a street fighter be a strong opponent?[/QUOTE]
Certainly, a street fighter can be a strong opponent. There are the Mike Tysons of the world who are as much a street fighter as anything. However, more typically, in my experience “,strong” street fighters are guys with inconsistent martial arts training and/or good fitness, but that’s not going to cut it against a a strong Wing Chun man who has come into his own.
My old Sifu Victor Kan once said to me “…a good martial artist will make a good street-fighter, but a good street-fighter wont necessarily make a good martial artist.”
iow the discipline required to be a good ma , balance training, yada , yada, the street-fighter he /she.. may not have, but a ma with all the attribute training will have better capabilities…
I did mostly street fighting in my lifetime :rolleyes:, just the strong trained punch alone to a head accounted for more ‘results’ than anything …one punch is all it took most times. Not a ‘flailing’ worthless strike you see many guys doing when ‘whirl winding’ at each other off balance,etc… with ‘peasant’ kicks, as my old sifu would say 
love that, a peasant kick is like a person kicks a soccer ball or punts a football downfield… I remember..[oh oh] being called to a fight at a nightclub in London, some guys where at it, local hoodlums I was aksed to stay at the entrance and not let them back in…one guy a local scottish maniac :eek: comes up to me and without a word just does a spectacular ‘peasant’ kick at my general direction, so I simply cupped his ankle without moving a inch …and kept it up in the air , his facial expression stays with me to this day :D:D
The “street fighter” is mainly MYTH, a boogeyman. He’s Bigfoot. Some people will tell you stories about their encounters with them but we just can’t find them when we look for them.
Concern over streetfighters is like concern over what to do if you encounter Bigfoot while camping.