Yes, I feel naihanchi is closer to southern hakka styles, I’m aware of those connections. And it is taught in most styles with a stance that is not the same as a standard horse, it is more like a form of the sanchin stance. Though shorin ryu isn’t as close to the hakka styles as goju ryu and uechi ryu, it’s older and had more diverse foundations. What I wanted to see is if anyone has ever seen a Chinese form that has a similar format to naihanchi, either in the stance and method of sideways locomotion, or the particular type of kick which the form might have been named for. It’s not even been determined for sure what “naihanchi” means. one person says it is nei fuan zhan, internal divided conflict. another says it may describe the type of kicking, “nei xi”, inside knee, and came from some school of southern crane. I don’t expect to find the exact form or anything still existing with the same name, but there might be some vestige of it somewhere.
I’ve been having a debate wherein it was discussed that naihanchi should be done in a standard Chinese horse stance (as it is in shotokan), not the modified stance which most Okinawan shorin ryu schools teach it, and that it was related to a northern Chinese style rather than southern. I argued that the stance is more like the sanchin/sanzhan stance, higher than a normal horse, and naihanchi is closer to southern Chinese systems. In my own experience with Chinese martial arts, I haven’t seen northern style forms that come anywhere close to naihanchi. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. So far everyone who has responded here with anything close have been from southern systems, which is what I would expect.
I’ve been looking into Okinawan/Chinese martial arts connections for years now, not all the information out there is accurate or reliable, a lot of it is just guesswork on the part of researchers. Much of the research and findings apply mainly to naha te/goju ryu kata, very little on the older shorin ryu kata. But I think I’ve probably read or heard of just about everything that’s been published so far on this topic. The origins of naihanchi, along with most of the shorin ryu kata, remain obscure.
At this point, I’m not necessarily looking for the “missing link” or the exact style which is the origin of naihanchi or any other kata, I don’t believe that exists anymore. But simply Chinese forms which share similar elements so that we could point to them and say that such techniques exist and how they might have been practiced. For the roots of shorin ryu in Chinse styles, we’d have to go back to Chinese systems that were around between the late 18th century and mid 19th century.
Many, if not most of Okinawan style(s) are from Southern China based on the varying Crane Styles that existed when the Okinawans visited S. China, or, when the periodic Chinese merchant(s) visited the Ryukun Islands.
The Horse stance is a recent creation, or at best, a transition from when Okinawan styles migrated to mainland Japan.
Naihanchi appears to be an Okinawan creation, which retained/maintained its ‘secrecy’ based on who you studied with, the era in which you studied and /or the insight gained from seeking those who are/were intimately familiar with said systems. When I was in Okinawa around 1977-1980, the practice of much of kata was on blocking and striking as evidenced by the books and other media presentations and that is how it was practiced, taught, explained and postulated.
That was the external presentation but within certain areas of Okinawa, there were those who practiced naihanchi as grappling (seizing/kyusho) and some throwing (limited) but the blocking/striking persists unitl this day.
Most stances were “high”, a relative vs an absolute term so there was wigglle room to work with what the real value of the specific kata! A good reference is :Bubishi; by William! (not sure) McCarthy. Most, if not all influence was S. China as opposed to North China.
Take a look at Okinawa on a map and compare mainland Japan with South China!
Oh, of course most of Okinawa’s contact with China came from Fujian, being the closest region. But emissaries were sent there from the royal court in Beijing, and likewise Okinawa sent emissaries. Also, there are northern shaolin/long fist styles which made their way into south China (thinking the lineage of Bak Sil Lum, as well as those that influenced the creation of Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar, and other related styles). So we can’t say that only white crane and hakka arts have any relation to karate.
The bubishi translation by Patrick McCarthy is the one you’re thinking of. Yes, it’s a great resource, but only really only addresses direct connections with a few naha te/goju/uechi kata and the Chinese men who taught Kanryo Higashionna and Chojun Miyagi in the late 19th century. There’s nothing about shorin ryu kata, specifically. And the research is far from definitive or complete.
All of karate is an Okinawan creation, but much of it has links or inspiration from Chinese styles. So while each kata is not going to be found in China, I do believe they had inspiration from different Chinese styles. The Okinawans may have learned a part of a form, or remembered certain techniques and used them to create a new kata.
I don’t even want something that is the same, I just want to see if there is something with some similarity. According to the tradition, naihanchi is one of the oldest kata, and came from a Chinese style. Maybe that’s just a misdirection or fabrication…but that’s what’s said. The fact that the name of the kata is an Okinawan transliteration of some Chinese words that no one knows the meaning of for sure says to me there might be some truth to the Chinese connection.
does anyone do horse stance with weights? its insanely hard
any1 want to share how they train the horse stance? i think it would be a cool thing 2 talk about
[QUOTE=bawang;975952]does anyone do horse stance with weights? its insanely hard
any1 want to share how they train the horse stance? i think it would be a cool thing 2 talk about[/QUOTE]
we place a staff across the thighs for horse and bow and arrow stance.
Beginner students must hold the horse with the staff for one minute before they can qualify for their first basic level.
When I started in Northern Siu-Lum, our teacher had us meditate in a horse(not that low) for twenty minutes to a half-hour. Fifteen students dropped down to two, (my friend and I) and that’s how we were accepted.
I also teach a “Horse Set” for beginners, and it is done in every class. It consists of Horse, Twisted, Bow, and Cat, in a partcular sequence. Stances are held low, for longer periods of time, and each repetition of the set, they get faster.
This is also the footwork for our basic Lion Dance rountine. This way, they can get under the head quicker.
Once you are under the head, you now have added weight, and all the stance, stepping, twisting, shifting etc comes into play. You develop strength as well as stamina, and power generation.
The Five Family Style has a short exercise called “walking the horse.” It starts with a square horse and repeats the same movements on both left and right with cross stances, forward stances and pivoting. No cat stances.
another simple horse stance exersize is to getinto horse stance, and then jump up and forward while staying in horse stance and landing in horse stance. you can do this for as long as you want really. go as high and as far as you can without fully leaving your stance. this will help train your exposiveness from the deep horse stance. add weights if you want, or a monkey on your back
i also like partner stance testing. in horse stance or bow stance or what ever stance you want really.
get a partner, both get in stance and clasp forearms and try to pull each other out of stance.
you can make it even more fun and bet on it :eek:
if you have a third person they can be the ref. you can set rules. allowing no stepping, no rising above a certain plane, etc.
make it more interesting and each of you can get on elevated platforms. like poles, or even more shaky cynderblocks.
you can set up a couple of cynder blocks where your feet will be in your horse stance, and jump up onto the blocks. the more narrow and high the blocks are the more difficult it will be to make sure you land perfectly.
lots of fun things like these out there. im pretty sure there is an unlimited amount of things you can do to train your stance.
after years, just sitting in stance will bore anyone, so we like to make fun games that still train us.
cool training man.
when i learned in taiji u learn standing post holding a invisible qi ball but after a while u hold a stone ball. its hard as hell. also try doing horse stance with a barbell on ur back like when u squat its hardcore
