Proper Horse Stance ?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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Hi, I recently started practicing and am uncertain about the proper way to do a horse stance. For reference, the horse stance used in the first two forms of Hung Gar.

In watching folks do it at the school, there is a good variation of how low they get. Some, who have been practicing for a few years, don’t do much more than slightly bent knees. I’ve seen one person who almost gets his thighs parallel to the floor.

I’m not questioning their work ethics, ability, etc, but rather am trying to get an idea of where I should be striving to be.

I’ve asked my Sifu, but he sort of shrugs off the question. I suppose that in the traditional model of teaching, there is a “need to know” approach from the SIFU. I think he just wants me to work on my strength now, and then later improve the stance. I think this is it, but I’m not sure. I don’t want to question him. My attitude is that I’m in his hands, just as I bet he was in his Sifu’s hands in the old country.

It may be that in every school, there are folks that try to perfect, and there are folks that don’t strive that way. I don’t know, but I’m just asking if there is a model way to do the stance. My inclination is that the horse stance in these forms should be deep.

If you could, take a look at the following clip. The monk in gray, who I presume is the Master, does what it appears to me to be the “perfect” stance. Thighs are parallel to the ground, back side is even lower and back is straight. But for comparison, the two gentlemen in the yellow robes who come into the clip after the first minute have some angle between thigh and ground. The taller one has the most angle.

So are these all correct? Maybe. But is the Master’s perfect - what I should picture in my mind to be striving for when doing the form work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKa53AJslkg

Thanks.

2

the teacher is shi deyang a renowned shaolin.

the horse is: thighs parallel, shins perpendicular, toes forwards with a slight outwardness being acceptable.

if you are not strong enough to do this, then gradually work at it until you are able to meet the requirements.

3

That would be shins perpendicular when viewing him from 12 and 6 oclock, but then angled foward from heel to knee when viewing him from 3 and 9 oclock, right?

4

you don’t want the knee to go over the toe. a slight angle when viewed side on is not too bad, but, shins straight up and down at 90 degrees is preferential

once you take the knee over the toe, you stress tendons and ligaments and risk damaging them.

when first beginning, slightly rocking back on the heels and tucking the tail bone is used to prevent this from happening in the case of the big square horse as shown in the clip.

5

One man’s horse is another man’s donkey.

6

lol.

horse is varied in martial arts.

the way it is used in practical application is nothing like the way it is trained.
horse stance, or horse riding stance is much higher and way more mobile when actually in use, but it is trained at the extreme range of motion.

it’s like bouncing a basketball and then switching to a ping pong ball.

or it’s like bench pressing 200 pounds to get strong for lifting 150.

and so on.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;905068]lol.

horse is varied in martial arts.

the way it is used in practical application is nothing like the way it is trained.
horse stance, or horse riding stance is much higher and way more mobile when actually in use, but it is trained at the extreme range of motion.

it’s like bouncing a basketball and then switching to a ping pong ball.

or it’s like bench pressing 200 pounds to get strong for lifting 150.

and so on.[/QUOTE]
Very good post. Although my evolution after thirty nine years of practice is to lower stances during fighting. Age has given me less weight and muscle so I need leverage and every advantage I can use.

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So putting application aside for the moment - one should strive for the deep, thighs parallel to the ground stance, for purposes of doing the open hand forms. Is that right? I specify the first few forms only b/c that’s where I am so far.

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[QUOTE=wetwonder;905132]So putting application aside for the moment - one should strive for the deep, thighs parallel to the ground stance, for purposes of doing the open hand forms. Is that right? I specify the first few forms only b/c that’s where I am so far.[/QUOTE]

yes, in forms practice, the shape will be trained at the far end of the range of motion to facilitate speed and mobility in the applied version.

form is the early portion of training that can be used as reference for the rest of your life. You’ll pull them apart eventually, extrapolate their content, drill it solo, drill it with resistance (bag work) drill it sparring and maybe even compete with what you take away.

of course, there are some styles that forgo this method and get right to the meat and potatoes, and that’s fine.

there’s a lot of roads leading to rome. :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;905065]you don’t want the knee to go over the toe. a slight angle when viewed side on is not too bad, but, shins straight up and down at 90 degrees is preferential[/quote]

If your shins are perpendicular to the ground from all lines of sight, it is impossible to do a decent ma bu.
Your “behind” will be 'way behind your feet, necessitating a forward torso inclination to achieve balance.
In this position, a true/effortless (power developing) rotation into any other stance
cannot be done.

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[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;905221]If your shins are perpendicular to the ground from all lines of sight, it is impossible to do a decent ma bu.
Your “behind” will be 'way behind your feet, necessitating a forward torso inclination to achieve balance.
In this position, a true/effortless (power developing) rotation into any other stance
cannot be done.[/QUOTE]

not strong enough yet? :slight_smile:

just kidding.

but, look at this:
http://www.shaolinkungfu.nl/images/img_mabu.jpg

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/CPS1.jpg

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[QUOTE=bakxierboxer;905221]If your shins are perpendicular to the ground from all lines of sight, it is impossible to do a decent ma bu.
Your “behind” will be 'way behind your feet, necessitating a forward torso inclination to achieve balance.
In this position, a true/effortless (power developing) rotation into any other stance
cannot be done.[/QUOTE]

hi, if you has shins parallel, when you turn ,you turn from horse stance to climb mountain stance (on the balls of your foot) not flat footed have a try

[QUOTE=wetwonder;905132]So putting application aside for the moment - one should strive for the deep, thighs parallel to the ground stance, for purposes of doing the open hand forms. Is that right? I specify the first few forms only b/c that’s where I am so far.[/QUOTE]
ya, low stance for training and performance. after a while you stand higher to practice like real fighting. for drilling like real fighting, mebbes bending 45 degrees, thats what i do. ask your sifu again some time later

im sorry to tell you but u shud focus on getting strong and trainging hard instead of thinking about form oh should i stand like this hold my hadn like this, if your sifu thinks you did something really really wrong he will correct you, he didnt answer you because its not important for you right now
whats important right now is not how you hold horse stance, its how long you hold it

when your sifu thinks you are for real and is gonna stay ask him again he will tell you. every style even school is different no one is wrong (unless you are wingchun)

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You’re partly right about the focus on strength in my case. But Sifu seems to be most concerned with form above the waist, often adjusting arm or hand position by a few inches here and there. He’s very very precise. I suppose that makes sense, as the upper body movements don’t require the same strength at this point as the lower body, so it’s easier to concentrate on form there.

My question was really about “where should I strive to be” with stances down the road. I think it’s an American cultural idiosynchrosy to be concerned about big picture, where we’re going, and having a need to understand the theory. So I can’t help it.

14

agree about all the specfications…

…accept one or two. first, I believe that the feet should be slightly turned in ( internally rotated) to compensate for the “naturally”:rolleyes: turned out(externally rotated) feet that most people walk around with.

This will help with overall muscle length/tension relationships and joint/ force couplings, throughout the kinetic chain ( Nervous system, muscluar system and skeletal system)which in turn will correct your overall posture and will also eliminate the outside wear on the heels of your shoes, which is caused by inversion of the feet. etc etc.

Second, it would be impossible for the lower legs to be 90 degrees vertical( perpendicular to the floor) if the thighs are parralel to the floor( horzontal or level with the floor). Like another person said above, this would put your torso ( upperbody) too far back ( like you were sitting on a chair) and would cause you to not to be centered over your base of support ( lower body). Which in turn would cause you to be unstable and off balance. They should be at a 45 degree angle.

15

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;905244]not strong enough yet? :slight_smile:

just kidding.

but, look at this:
http://www.shaolinkungfu.nl/images/img_mabu.jpg

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/CPS1.jpg[/QUOTE]

Neither one of them has both shins perpendicular to the ground from all lines of sight.

16

*head explode
does it matter lol

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if you can do standing splits shaolin style does it matter?.

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I suggest you go to your Sifu or Sihings for advice on the proper horse, it can vary a lot from school to school. For instance look at wushu form competitors, very different stances from any Hung Gar I’ve ever seen. Advice on the forum can help but remember they aren’t your Sifu, good luck and enjoy your training.

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[QUOTE=diego;905516]if you can do standing splits shaolin style does it matter?.[/QUOTE]
i dont think it matters. every one has their own way of doing their stuff i agree that he should ask his sifu

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Everything in Hung Gar matters. I learned that much my first day.

I did ask Sifu, as explained in the post.