I’m curious to know how you guys deal with a good tight hook punch such as one a western boxer might throw?
“Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao”
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.
You have to move in and use your body.You cant just throw your arm out or he will hit you in the face.
MJ- I doubt I could move in before a good boxer would tag me. What I do is a Fook Sao…if I can explain it…the same arm shape as a bong sao but with your palm down & fingers pointed like you’re poking someone in the eyes who might be standing to the side. I whip it into the hook hard and fast so that the contact is on the inside of the wrist say around the area you’d buckle a watch band. It works well even against extremely hard punches but it’s meeting force with force. Hope you can see what I’m trying to illustrate it’s hard to describe.
“Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao”
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.
fuk those hooks up!
heh
anyway ive been taught to meet hooks in the same manner, with a fuk sau to the hooking arm. it may be meeting with force but then the stance comes into play. All that hooking energy goes from the fuk, to my stance then back up into the punch that the other hand is throwing. use a “stance turn” and its all gravy.
Bei,have you ever done this yourself?
Favorites would be tan-da and pak-da.
???
i think you guys are missing the point, its a tight hook he’s talking about. ie one where the elbow is bent almost 90 degrees. maybe im being ignorant, if so sorry, but i dont get how you can use a fook on that, or a tan da for that matter. or come in close and let the hook slide round the back of your head.
personally id either back away, duck or put my elbow up like in fight club…i think thats a pretty good way to stop a tight hook…even though it hurts like hell.
-specialization is for ants-
Tight hooks
Boxers/good punchers usually throw those tight hooks you’re talking about from a clinch. When “at range”, they’ll usually set up with jab/cross combos, so you won’t normally find a boxer jumping in at you with a tight hook – there are better ways to turn your face into hamburger while they are probing forward across the gap.
To land a tight hook with power, like you are describing, means the opponent is trying to tear your head off from a clinch/clinching range.
If he’s that close, you don’t have the space to tan da, or the time/positiong to pak da. To throw a tight hook from a clinch, he’s going to drop the punching shoulder and open a slight space.
IMHO, the best thing to do is shoot your forearm forward in a sat sau/fak sau movement into the side of his neck while you simultaneously bring an upward elbow into position that will double as a wu sau at that range to cover yourself. (If he’s hooking with his right arm, shoot your right forearm foward while you bring up your left elbow.)
You are going to find more efficiency and power if you don’t try to “block” the punch, but tear into his operational balance structure. If you go for a “block” he’ll just try and hit you with the other hand, and you’ll be in a speed war (which is fine if you’re the quickest guy on the block, but for sloths like myself - we’ve got to find a better way).
A sat sau (Executing Hand) shot to the neck area as he tries to land his punch will tear him backwards off of his balance base, retard the power in his strike, and seal him off from launching potential follow-up punches.
Once you nail him with the forearm, immediately bring your elbow over in a kup jarn movement to split the side of his face open, then blast away with chain punches.
The name of the game is this type of fighting is FOLLOW-UP. Bring that kup jarn in as soon as you nail him with the sat sau, then start blasting away with everything available.
These movements for “clinch fighting” are found in the first section of Biu Tze. Nasty stuff. 
Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
“Here too virtue has its due reward.”
[This message was edited by Watchman on 05-06-01 at 01:19 PM.]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Bei,have you ever done this yourself? [/quote]
MJ-Yes, I have and it does work even against stronger & larger opponents but it hurts like hell! 
I’m hoping to find a more efficient and painless way to do it though.
“Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao”
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>personally id either back away, duck or put my elbow up like in fight club [/quote]
Nickle…Are you sure your a Wing Chun guy.
Bei-Well ill take your word for it but i saw wong shun leung do what i was talking about.It worked without the pain…
Martial Joe,
Can you expand on what you mean by move in and use your body?
hahaha
yeah martial, im sure… i know that that isnt the most orthodox wing chun stuff in the world but remember that i am only a beginner.
just trying to offer my 2 cents.
maybe when i do the next 2 forms ill know what to do against a tight hook. a longer range hook is much easier.
-specialization is for ants-
different strokes for different folks
BeiKongHui - the arm positioning that you’ve mentioned does’nt sound like a fook sau. It sounds more like a lan sau. Using the lan sau can be rather dangerous also since the hook can come in at any height and not just to the face. Lan sau does’nt cover enough area - unless of course, you’re really good.
I have to agree a little with MJ about moving in and using the body. Whipping down the tan sau from the bong sau position in tan da as you move in and punch works for me. The elbow from bong sau protects you to a certain extent until it turns to tan. The tan sau has to come down hard and with enough force in order for it to prevent the hook from coming in.
watchman - I know what you mean by clinching range, but IMHO you should not find yourself in that range unless you are prepared to deal with that tight hook in the first place.
>>>>>watchman - I know what you mean by clinching range, but IMHO you should not find yourself in that range unless you are prepared to deal with that tight hook in the first place.<<<<<
I agree with you on that one. In fact, my philosophy is: don’t get clinched. Tight hooks from a good puncher are dangerous.
The hook that was being discussed (arm bent at 90 degrees) isn’t going to happen unless the guy is already in clinching range, or is in the process of moving into the clinch – meaning he’s in real close, or he’s trying to get real close. With this in mind, and taking into account that if he has any punching power at all, then he’ll have some serious momentum behind him. Normally, if they’re coming in hard and fast from that close you don’t really have the time or space to perform a textbook tan da or pak da to prevent from having your brains spill out of your ears.
IMHO, don’t chase the punch. Use your simultaneous movement (with a forearm and elbow)and the space being opened by the hook to attack his body structure (where his power is coming from anyway).
Of course, the response always depends on the particular circumstances. If he’s a dolt trying to throw a hook from outside of your bridge, just shift your hips to give you some arm extension and shove his teeth down his throat.
Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
“Here too virtue has its due reward.”
pak sao??
Maybe what i’ll suggest is already been said but i am not yet familiar with all chinese terms. How about trying to use a pak sao on his bicep. It is kind of an unusual tactic but it works. You can either use to control his punch and avoid it since it less powerfull if catch it back there or you can pack hard on his bicep and hurt his arm. It is of course a very close distance technique but a hook punch is one also.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> BeiKongHui - the arm positioning that you’ve mentioned does’nt sound like a fook sau. It sounds more like a lan sau. [/quote]
No, not a Lan Sau as that would not protect you from a shot coming from the outside -to the ear for example. The method I described is a Fook Sau and can block the hook if it’s to the head or you can lower the arm to cover the ribs. It also doesn’t require stepping in since a boxer will either already be in real close or will tag you with a jab as soon as you step in. Also the Taan Sao works against wild roundhouses and the like but not against a skilled fighter, they’ll cut right around it. I also find that the option to step into or around is often not there as boxers are very fast on their feet and often will not allow you enough time and space for complex techniques.
Watchman- I see your point and believe it would work against a more stationary opponent like another WC person but what if the boxer is bobbing and weaving? Could I still expect similar results? Also, I totally agree with your statement on pak da & taan da I learned that the hard way! 
“Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao”
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.
Panangiotis: with the hooks we’re talking about, trying to pak the bicep will only get you hit. The opponent’s arm is bent at the elbow and coming in at you in tight circle.
Plus, trying to pak by crossing your body like that removes your ability to simultaneously strike with the other hand. And, if you’ve got your hand stuck over on the other side of your body your face is left wide open for his quick follow up strike (boxers NEVER just throw one punch, it’s all done in combination).
To give yourself an idea of how close this strike is coming at you - hold your arm up in front of you, bending your elbow a bit more than 45 degrees. See how close you have to be to hit anything with power? You’re just about at kissing range with the opponent. :eek:
In that kind of dynamic, there’s no way a pak sau is going to stop the punch, and you don’t have the room to use tan sau effectively. Like BeiKongHui said, the punch will just snake around your arm.
Also, good boxers aren’t going to stand still in front of you to throw the punch. Good hooks are delivered with a shift of the hips so they can power off of their legs and shoot the punch in on an off-angle (about 45 degrees to you). You’ve got to have good centerline control and follow his body movement.
BeiKongHui: It should work if he’s bobbing and weaving IF you are fluid with your footwork. You don’t want to stand still and trust your hands to catch everything coming in. Depending on how close he is and much power he’s got coming in - I would use the same move you’re describing (fak sau? biu sau?) if I’m not clinched. If I’m clinched, I’ll use an upward elbow to guard my head, or he goes for the ribs, I’ll drop my elbow down in a tan/chamber position.
I still say you HAVE to simultaneously nail him with a free limb to shut off his intended combo. That is also something I learned the hard way.
Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
“Here too virtue has its due reward.”
Nickle-I wasnt trying to offend you.You didnt seem offended anyway…
Popsider-I ment…what i said,its very easy to understand.You move on the inside and use your body to use a tan that will hold and a punch with the other hand.then you could follow up by a pak to their hook hand with the hand you punched him with and then hit him with the hand you stopped him with.If the fight lasted that long anyway.But you should follow up anyway just incase.
You know there are many different ways.This is just an easy one that works.If done corectly.
not easy…
This ain’t an easy question. Basically, the whole situation hinges on whether it is a hook thrown by a competent fighter, or a wild one thrown by a half assed wannabe.
Against the ‘real’ boxer, any reaction that requires any thought or is more than an instantaneous reaction is going to be too slow. A good boxer will not telegraph his actions and the strike will be too fast to simply react to. He will probably have good footwork, and so simply applying forward pressure won’t work.
I just try to not be there when the hook happens. The average boxer will lead it with a jab or fake, and so footwork can enable you to put your body into a position where the hook cannot be thrown economically.
Go to a good, friendly gym, and test the different techniques against a real boxer. It will be good for your wing chun techniques to test it against someone who punches differently to the ordinary wing chun man.
Good Luck.
Cheers
It’s all in the appliation
I have to agree with young Joe on this one. I believe if timed correctly with the proper footwork, both tan and pak still work - even with a tight hook. It all depends on how it’s applied. I agree that not all tan da and pak da will work, but then again how are you applying them? And at what angle? Are you the one closing the distance or the boxer? Are you fighting offensively or defensively? It makes all the difference in the world. IMHO, in a fight it all boils down to a couple of things - skill and opportunity. And that goes both ways.
I just sparred with a boxer on Monday. I can honestly say that he could’nt get close enough to throw me one of those tight hooks because I never gave him the opportunity. I found that whenever he charged in with a flurry of punches - all I had to do was cover, take a step or two back to suck him in a little to get him comfortable enough to follow me in before stepping right back in to punch or/and kick him. Whenever we were in clinching distance - it was under my conditions and not his. We did this for about 15 minutes, and after his frustration and a bloody nose (oops!) we decided to quit.
I still don’t understand what people have against sparring. Not only is it fun, but you learn alot from it. Just my humble opinion.