Does any one practice the Hong Jong/Air Dummy.
After you learn the Muk Yan Jong form you can also practice it in the air with out a dummy. Does anyone see this as useful or necessary to produce any benefits. If you see any benefits to practicing the Air Dummy/Empty Dumm form let me know?
I see a few videos of the dummy being practice By chinese. But I never seen any westerners practicing the Hong Jong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuASgwTsinE
If you’re a guy that likes forms and likes long sequences, that is again the benefit of solo practice of the Hung Jong. Its an aid to memory and practicing your movements in the air. Chinese like long forms as it helps to discover the full spectrum of movement and possibilities, and would help them remember movements they might otherwise forget.
I guess you can say that is like sex with an imaginary blow up doll. 
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;957344]
I see a few videos of the dummy being practice By chinese. But I never seen any westerners practicing the Hong Jong. [/QUOTE]
Hey. I’m the white guy practicing the Air Dummy.
interesting westerner
[QUOTE=couch;957372]Hey. I’m the white guy practicing the Air Dummy.[/QUOTE]
oh really can I see the video?
We often have beginning students practice our Cheurn Kiu Sau dummy form in the air when first being introduced to it. With larger class sizes and only 3 dummies, it’s also necessary. They usually mimic in the air behing someone using the actual dummy. They can still practice the movements/sequences, angles, fwd. intent, etc without the dummy contact, and it makes it easier for them to transition to the dummy after they have some of the basic the sequence down.
Of course, these same movements are also used directly in our partner training as well. The solo work seems to help them learn the initial movements and angles without the added fear/confusion beginners sometimes have with the dummy contact. So, learn the movements in the air a few times, on a partner and on the dummy and repeat. Each one reinforces the next and gives better understanding of the other two.
I’m not chinese, and not sure about the whole “love long forms” or blow up doll thing, but it seems like a logical training progression to me
But I never seen any westerners practicing the Hong Jong.
You need to get out more. I’ve been practicing it for over 20 years.
[QUOTE=anerlich;957409]You need to get out more. I’ve been practicing it for over 20 years.[/QUOTE]
You beat me to it Andrew.
i do it. I find it interesting as moves are slightly changed as you dont have to compensate for the arms not moving. I also find it easier to reference where the person is as we all know the dummy body is not always your opponents body. You can do certain moves full extension and the steps tend to be different. I also do it as i work 12 hrs shift s so i dont get to use my dummy as much as being at work.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;957480]i do it. I find it interesting as moves are slightly changed as you dont have to compensate for the arms not moving. I also find it easier to reference where the person is as we all know the dummy body is not always your opponents body. You can do certain moves full extension and the steps tend to be different. I also do it as i work 12 hrs shift s so i dont get to use my dummy as much as being at work.[/QUOTE]
Great feed back. Finally some well informed answers from a real WC practioner. I am over joyed you shared your experience openly and honestly. May you always increase in skill. But I would have to concur with what you were saying. Also different techniques can be drilled on a person as well as the dummy or even other inanimate objects such as trees to give you different angles and posistioning and height and distances to work with. Excellent keep the quality information coming
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;957398]We often have beginning students practice our Cheurn Kiu Sau dummy form in the air when first being introduced to it. With larger class sizes and only 3 dummies, it’s also necessary. They usually mimic in the air behing someone using the actual dummy. They can still practice the movements/sequences, angles, fwd. intent, etc without the dummy contact, and it makes it easier for them to transition to the dummy after they have some of the basic the sequence down.
Of course, these same movements are also used directly in our partner training as well. The solo work seems to help them learn the initial movements and angles without the added fear/confusion beginners sometimes have with the dummy contact. So, learn the movements in the air a few times, on a partner and on the dummy and repeat. Each one reinforces the next and gives better understanding of the other two.
I’m not chinese, and not sure about the whole “love long forms” or blow up doll thing, but it seems like a logical training progression to me :)[/QUOTE]
Oh my friend thank you tremendoulsy for sharing your views. Excellent comments. Thank you for showing me that their are real WC fighters left in the world. I understand and agree with all your saying. Personally I don’t think Long long forms are beneficial at all. I think shorter forms make more sense. The more condense and simple the better.
If anyone else has any post that are actually useful please share.
You guys are talking about useful tools for beginners, which is fine.
Let’s use an analogy - you enroll in Kama Sutra school and want to learn to make love to a woman. Please humor me on this, and this is all tongue in cheek. You first learn movements of lovemaking in the air, then do repetitive pre-sex movements with a partner. Then have sex with a blow up doll, then do sex in the air imagining doing it with a blow up doll…? When do you actually get to do it?
LOL!
I do it regularly, in the air and on the dummy, good benefits!!! Helps the mind too!
[QUOTE=chusauli;957505]You guys are talking about useful tools for beginners, which is fine.
Let’s use an analogy - you enroll in Kama Sutra school and want to learn to make love to a woman. Please humor me on this, and this is all tongue in cheek. You first learn movements of lovemaking in the air, then do repetitive pre-sex movements with a partner. Then have sex with a blow up doll, then do sex in the air imagining doing it with a blow up doll…? When do you actually get to do it?
LOL![/QUOTE]
Your analogy is garbage, and makes me wonder where you derived your ‘sense’ of humor. You are comparing two very dissimilar things. Hopefully you won’t continute the mistake by comparing fighting to something as dissimilar as dry land swimming or tennis or something :rolleyes:
Let me ask you, do you find any use for SNT, CK, BJ forms after the first year?
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;957550]Your analogy is garbage, and makes me wonder where you derived your ‘sense’ of humor. You are comparing two very dissimilar things. Hopefully you won’t continute the mistake by comparing fighting to something as dissimilar as dry land swimming or tennis or something :rolleyes:
Let me ask you, do you find any use for SNT, CK, BJ forms after the first year?[/QUOTE]
Hey my friend let me tell you SNT is useful for beginners and idiots. You dont need a form. You want a form watch skill resistant fighters and do what you see them do. This real form practice. You see them punch you punch like they do against resistant compentant fighters. After you spent years of getting socked in head and groin like real compentant fighters than you will understand true Wing Chun.
Sil lim Tao, Chum Kiu and Bill Gee have alot of use. Have some smelly unskilled student do those forms in front of mirror imagining they are really fighting. But for us real fighters we don’t watch arms flop around in the mirrior. Fighting is like eating. Do you need a mirror to watch the spoon of soup go into your mouth. Do you need a set hand pattern to practice each day to make sure you use the toliet correctly. No you sit your arse down…do some grunting, Push, squeeze and in some instances pulll until you hear the water splash and then you grab some toilet tissue to wipe your arse with. Let me see do you need a solo form to learn how to use the toliet?
Let me Guess. SOTT This means Sit on the toilet.
The SOTT form
First you open. Then your hands slide to your trouser. next you unbutton your troser with the left hand and right hand. Then your right hand slides the zipper down while your left hand clasp your pants together. Next both hands go to your sides. Now slide your trousers down. Next with both hands Gan Sau your drawers. Now squat. Then place all your arse pressure on to bowl. Sit back. Keep the back straight. Head looking forward. Push on your coien. Release and Dispel the negative Chi. Now you did it all your negative vibrations will begin to fill the waters below your buttocks with negative chi stool. After your have completed grunting and some cases yelling and screaming you close by sitting up. Wiping your brown or green buttocks clean of debris. both hands pull your speedos up. Now your trousers. Now your button your trousers with both hands. Next zip the zipper with the right hand. place hands at your side. Now exhale. Thus conclusion of the SOTT form.
Practicing SNT form is like practicing the SOTT Form. its utterly useless unless your attacker decides he needs to practice a forms before he hits you. Oh yea some guy might even attack you with their form on street. Like some Shotokan guy trying to apply his kata upon your face. Then You want to use bil gee or chum kiu to seek his bridge.
In my humble opinion fighting with a set pattern will you get submitted and knocked out. The fight will end before you can even get to Tan Sau fok Sau motion. An you will be the one on the ground bleeding…ha ha…
So if you want a real form find competent fighters who are actually resisting you. Then see if your form wiill defeat them.
Now Chauslis is my answer on the money yet buddy???
Sorry Jpinaz
My apologies to anyone offended and enrolled in the Kama Sutra school of sex. 
SNT and CK represent 95% of WCK to me. But after one has practiced it and knows it for a while - hopefully, they would do well to internalize its principles. After that, combing your hair is your form, brushing teeth is your form, daily movement is your form.
The ancients spoke of Wu Ji to Tai Ji, to Liang yi, to Si Xiang, to Ba Gua, to 64 gua, and the 10000 changes. Few understand that it later goes back from 10000 changes, to 64 gua, to Ba Gua, to Si Xiang, to Liang Yi, back to Tai Ji, and finally Wu Ji again.
So in a sense, Yoshi is correct. Who tells you to take a dump? You just do it.
[QUOTE=chusauli;957505]Let’s use an analogy - you enroll in Kama Sutra school and want to learn to make love to a woman, and this is all tongue in cheek.
LOL![/QUOTE]
you must’ve gotten hold of the Greek edition… ;-p (!)
anyone who thinks the forms are useless after the first year has no idea about vt. Who teacher you to ****. Yous parents they show you where to go, how to clean up etc. The form are not patterns that you use like combos each wove is entirely seperate. If you dont do the forms you tend to just do ****. We always say you lose about 50 percent of skill in a fight. If all you do is make the vt work you wont tend to do it properly. Spending all your time doing it wrong teaches you to do it wrong. Forms isolate the moves so it can be made perfect. Might be why most people look like kickboxers when they fight. The techniques should atleast resemble vt. If you are prefect in practice you should be at least decent when you fight.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;957624]If you dont do the forms you tend to just do ****. We always say you lose about 50 percent of skill in a fight. If all you do is make the vt work you wont tend to do it properly. Spending all your time doing it wrong teaches you to do it wrong. Forms isolate the moves so it can be made perfect. Might be why most people look like kickboxers when they fight. The techniques should atleast resemble vt. If you are prefect in practice you should be at least decent when you fight.[/QUOTE]Depends on what you practice and how you practice.
[QUOTE=chusauli;957572]My apologies to anyone offended and enrolled in the Kama Sutra school of sex.
SNT and CK represent 95% of WCK to me. But after one has practiced it and knows it for a while - hopefully, they would do well to internalize its principles. After that, combing your hair is your form, brushing teeth is your form, daily movement is your form.
The ancients spoke of Wu Ji to Tai Ji, to Liang yi, to Si Xiang, to Ba Gua, to 64 gua, and the 10000 changes. Few understand that it later goes back from 10000 changes, to 64 gua, to Ba Gua, to Si Xiang, to Liang Yi, back to Tai Ji, and finally Wu Ji again.
So in a sense, Yoshi is correct. Who tells you to take a dump? You just do it.[/QUOTE]
Wow…he went a little hendrik on us there witl all the Wu Ji stuff. Anyway now he agrees with me. An I was talking a mouthful of BS…I was being overly sarcastic and He says I am right by dump thing…Anyway I just wanted to comment on this because in away he is not actually given his opinion on what he believes concerning form practice. On one hand it says the first two forms are 95% of WC which too me is a major strecth. You don’t do form practice 95% of the time in class do you? An then on another note he compared my analogy of taking a dump to that of doing forms. So which is buddy…
Tell us Robert Chu…
Is practicing Sil Lim Tao Useless or Useful.
Please swallow the blue or red pill. Don’t mix them both
[QUOTE=bennyvt;957624]anyone who thinks the forms are useless after the first year has no idea about vt. Who teacher you to ****. Yous parents they show you where to go, how to clean up etc. The form are not patterns that you use like combos each wove is entirely seperate. If you dont do the forms you tend to just do ****. We always say you lose about 50 percent of skill in a fight. If all you do is make the vt work you wont tend to do it properly. Spending all your time doing it wrong teaches you to do it wrong. Forms isolate the moves so it can be made perfect. Might be why most people look like kickboxers when they fight. The techniques should atleast resemble vt. If you are prefect in practice you should be at least decent when you fight.[/QUOTE]
Another Excellent post…Thank you very much for your input. This is the example of a useful post…Although I have no idea what the word **** is??? maybe you can write the word with a non-vulgar counterpart???
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;957635]Wow…he went a little hendrik on us there witl all the Wu Ji stuff.[/QUOTE]Do you understand the intent of the post? To train using form and then transcending form?
On one hand it says the first two forms are 95% of WC which too me is a major strecth. You don’t do form practice 95% of the time in class do you?
Isn’t there a commonly held view that one can fight after only training SNT and CK? You’re confusing curriculum with essence.
Is practicing Sil Lim Tao Useless or Useful.
Depends where you are in your training. If you understand what the forms give you then you don’t necessarily need to return to them unless you think there is value in it. Personally I do think that interactive training with another human being is the best option.
Forms can be useful…but as everyone thinks they know best, they will never expand their understand.
Robert is correct in IMHO that you transend form and need to do the real thing wheather… sex or fighting.
To me, its very useful doing air dummy as its different from on the dummy. most kung fu systems have forms which allow full motion, flow and body cotnrol, air dummy is a good answer to that.
I like returning to the forms although I know them and teach them all the time. I find they provide mental training and a return to basics, elbows, strucutre etc.
I say do what is difficult, forms are easy great move onto sparring, air dummy is easy move onto somethign else, one legged stance is easy, move onto something else…if its difficult for you to do it might be worth doing it more.
Paul
www.moifa.co.uk