It meant to say the muscle involved in arm extension.
[b]I need my triceps when I am pushing a car but I need them minimally for wing chun punches.
That is unfortunately very wrong. How do you figure you don’t need triceps when doing chainpunches when this is the main muscle that is used when delivering the punch? This is simple physiology.[/b]
It’s neither unfortunate nor wrong: “Minimally”. It’s the difference between a hit, and a fist-shaped push. Haven’t you ever been punched hard by someone with no discernable tricep muscle?
Also, the forearm and wrist regions are the most important areas of the arm for a wing chun fighter. These areas must be developed as they are the areas in contact.
My question is not about whether strong forearms are useful. My question is why we want to try to develop them during SNT.
When we add dynamic tension to SNT, what do we lose and what do we gain? Why do arm-strengthening exercises during SNT, instead of doing them separately?
Just as it is necessary to strengthen the leg muscles in SNT stance for a stable root it is necessary to strengthen the forearm and wrist.
I assume you don’t move your legs in your SNT. Do you try to keep “dynamic tension” in the legs while you are standing still? I doubt it. That would be absurd. And when you step in Chum Kiu, do you intentionally keep tension in your legs? I doubt that too. It would be irrational. Your analogy argues with your point.
the shoulder is used in chain punching (in the SLT stance) way more than the tricep; overuse of the tricep causes hyper extension. i’d say i use the bicep, shoulder and wrist more than the tricep.
turning punches i’d say the waist and the legs are used the most.
when you chain punch, are your punches tense like the dynamic tension in your SLT?
Chain punching!
I have to say, I am not positive which exact muscles are being used the most in chain punching, but I do know that after about 400 punches, my shoulders and bicepts are really tired!
Re: Chain punching!
Originally posted by Clint
I have to say, I am not positive which exact muscles are being used the most in chain punching, but I do know that after about 400 punches, my shoulders and bicepts are really tired!
Then, either you’re very out of shape or you’re doing them wrong.
Regards,
Grendel,
nicely put.
As to the rest of this thread, I don’t even know where to begin, and will try to leave it be.
Later,
Andrew
HMMMM!
I don’t think Im doing them wrong, it is the way I learned them. However, I definitely should practice more! Maybe Im tensing too much, as opposed to relaxing, or it could be this 3 year old always hitting my leg while im doing them!
Clarification!
Oh, I should clarify one thing. I stated 400 punches earlier, it is not literally 400 single punches, its actually 400 sets of 5. I count each set of 5 as one. This is the way I usually practice chain punches while shifting on every 5th punch, simply because this is the way we practice at my school. However, I still should practice more often than I do. My sifu told me while training punches on the wallbag, I should get up to 3-5000 reps per arm, with time. I am definitely not there yet.
Re: Clarification!
Originally posted by Clint
Oh, I should clarify one thing. I stated 400 punches earlier, it is not literally 400 single punches, its actually 400 sets of 5. I count each set of 5 as one. This is the way I usually practice chain punches while shifting on every 5th punch, simply because this is the way we practice at my school. However, I still should practice more often than I do. My sifu told me while training punches on the wallbag, I should get up to 3-5000 reps per arm, with time. I am definitely not there yet.
Probably you are not remaining relaxed enough, especially in your biceps—they probably just need more training. There should be no tension in your arms or shoulders. From Chi Sao practice, your shoulders should easily be able to sustain a few thousand chain punches, but I don’t do more than 1000 per day. Time better spent on other Wing Chun practice, such as punching the wall bag and doing the sets, and the other recommendations for home, presumbably solo practice, already discussed.
Good practice to you though!
Regards,
the reason the bicep gets tired is because at the end of a punch, you give it some power, the bicep has to work to keep the arm from hyperextending. if you stay relaxed throughout the whole punch, without the little snap at the end you can hurt your arm, IMHO.
after 1000+ punches its not the shoulder that lifts my arm, nor my tricep thats tired, rather the back of my shoulder and the bicep that has to stop my punches - in chi sau they dont get worked as hard im guessing
Thanx for the input Grendel and TJD!
Thanx, I will try to remain more relaxed when practising.
i do wt and tensing any muscles is a mortal sin.especially where leung ting is concerned.energetic,forward energy.hitting with your whole body.not just hitting with a specific muscle group
Originally posted by zultan
i do wt and tensing any muscles is a mortal sin.especially where leung ting is concerned.energetic,forward energy.hitting with your whole body.not just hitting with a specific muscle group
Thanks for the verification. This is how I understood it from some other WT people who seem to follow Leung Ting closely. Your description is also consistent with our approach.
I still have some difficulty resolving much of the WT promotional material I have seen, save the possibility that it reflects Kernspecht’s approach more than Leung Ting’s as UF suggested.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Originally posted by TjD
[B]the shoulder is used in chain punching (in the SLT stance) way more than the tricep; overuse of the tricep causes hyper extension. i’d say i use the bicep, shoulder and wrist more than the tricep.
turning punches i’d say the waist and the legs are used the most.
when you chain punch, are your punches tense like the dynamic tension in your SLT? [/B]
Nope, the shoulder is used on the final impact of a full ectension but the tricep causes extension. On a short punch the power is all in the wrist and forearm.
Chainpunches are done totally relaxed, as is almost everything in WT. Again, the SNT can be trained with tension in the forearm to develop the muscle, but it is also trained without tension as for application. Understand? Two different ways of training the same thing! (Shock horror).
Kathy,
please don’t mistake UF’s misconstruction of certain statements for what WT actually does. While individual expressions of the art differ, Leung Ting, KK, and Sifu Emin are all doing remarkably similar things. There’s no vast separation, just some confused students who see a portion of the art and miss the whole. Or for that matter, totally miss what’s supposed to be going on.
Later,
Andrew
Thanks, Andrew. I have always valued your insights.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Nope, the shoulder is used on the final impact of a full ectension but the tricep causes extension. On a short punch the power is all in the wrist and forearm.
Have you ever been punched hard by someone with scrawny arms? Yes or no? Anyone who has been, knows you aren’t telling the whole story. The only thing stopping you from using your FULL BODY in a short punch, is your own lack of coordination.
Chainpunches are done totally relaxed, as is almost everything in WT. Again, the SNT can be trained with tension in the forearm to develop the muscle, but it is also trained without tension as for application. Understand? Two different ways of training the same thing! (Shock horror).
SNT with tension is the same thing as SNT without tension? LOL, shock horror indeed! 
Choose your words carefully if you presume to give advice over the Internet.
Ultimatefighter says:
“Again, the SNT can be trained with tension in the forearm to develop the muscle, but it is also trained without tension as for application.”
This is true, I also do WT, and we have been shown 2 ways of doing SNT. One relaxed and one with tension. But the tension is only during the 3 Fook Sau movements, and it is a natural tension that is caused by the position of the hand and the thumb. It is NOT a forced tension. If during Fook Sau, you allow your fingers to point toward the ground (at about 7 o’clock) and place your thumb on the side of your first knuckle you can feel the tension in your forarm. It was shown to my class as a way to develop the muscles inside the forearm. When I use this method I try to relax my forarm, although, because this is a natural tension, it is virtually impossible. I also train the SNT in the normal way, ie. without tension.
My Si-fu does not advocate tensing the muscles in any other part of SNT or in application. And if you do when doing chi sau, he is quick to show you “the errors of your way”. 8>)
I hope I have explained this properly.
I also see tensing as a kung fu sin. Even though Hung Gar does some tension, their stuff is internal work.
Originally posted by Gandolf269
[B]Ultimatefighter says:
“Again, the SNT can be trained with tension in the forearm to develop the muscle, but it is also trained without tension as for application.”
This is true, I also do WT, and we have been shown 2 ways of doing SNT. One relaxed and one with tension. But the tension is only during the 3 Fook Sau movements, and it is a natural tension that is caused by the position of the hand and the thumb. It is NOT a forced tension. If during Fook Sau, you allow your fingers to point toward the ground (at about 7 o’clock) and place your thumb on the side of your first knuckle you can feel the tension in your forarm. It was shown to my class as a way to develop the muscles inside the forearm. When I use this method I try to relax my forarm, although, because this is a natural tension, it is virtually impossible. I also train the SNT in the normal way, ie. without tension.
My Si-fu does not advocate tensing the muscles in any other part of SNT or in application. And if you do when doing chi sau, he is quick to show you “the errors of your way”. 8>)
I hope I have explained this properly. [/B]
Yes that was well explained. I should have made clear that the ‘tension’ is only trained with the 3 fook sau movements and is not ‘forced’. The rest of the form is with relaxation in the forearm. Chi sau obviously is done relaxed but with slight forward pressure. This is the hard part to master. If you are tense in chi sau you will be easy to hit and to manouver around. On the other hand, if you are totally relaxed with no forward energy, you will be limp like a wet noodle and will also be easy to hit and control. It is a balance as with everything in Chinese martial arts ‘Yin-Yang’.
“Wing Tsun is Taoism in motion.”