[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1153824]And here is the thing, IF you were to find out tomorrow that this history was all wrong what difference would it make to your ability to use your WC?
None, none whatsoever.
[/QUOTE]
Well, speaking personally it totally messes up my fruit defense.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1153854]
Well, then Tan Sau Ng according to your viewpoint must have been a very imbalanced kind of guy, what with having a name that is all yang.
I kind of don’t understand the point, though. The story from HFY oral tradition doesn’t say anything about tan sau being the ultimate.
I think you get a little wacky when you start talking about DNA. I know you have your whole line of reasoning what with the DNA subject and the true heritage from snake and crane kung fu. I think that is part of your family oral tradition and if it helps you preserve Yik Kam WCK and the details of it that others in your family miss then that’s great for you. It’s an interesting perspective. I think the problem gets to be applying it to all other WCK families across the board. They have different stories and ways to preserve the art.
This is kind of an example of what I was saying in the last paragraph. You’re generalizing to an extreme. China has how many billion people living there? Do you think it’s possible that some of the authors that wrote books that you own regarding Chinese TCMA history might not have met all of them?[/QUOTE]
if we leave the lineage out , take things as a true third party reserach, and look at the tcma technology and china history with records. then we can nail lots of things down.
Tan Sau Ng, exist and we need to take him as who he is, as it is. Same with the Red Bandana army exist and we need to take them as who they are.
China TCMA and history is not that difficult to check out. we might not know to the exact, but the dominant key we can get there without problem.
the exist of the snake and crane section in the SLT, in fact has told a lots of major story for WCK. we know across WCK lineages from Chan Wah to Ku lo, to snake crane to YKS. what is the common denominator. and how is the pre 1900 version looks like. so, it is not that dificult to trace into the technology DNA of WCK.
Tan Sau Ng is a Shao Lin exist in 1700 according to the history. now, do not everyone get curious why is the core of Siu Lin Tau accross lineages from Chan Wah, YKS, Ku Lo, snake crane, Cho family has a signature from white Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang?
So, how is it make sense that Tan Sau Ng, a Shao Lin who probably doing Chan Wu Yi type of Shao lin ( I presume Tan Sau Ng is a real Shao lin as today’s Chan Wu Yi) to create a set called Siu Lien Tau, using the White Crane and Emei Technology?
in todays language is like a Microsoft guru creating a software based on Apple operating system which he is not the expert in.
In addition, according to Shao Lin, Tan Sau is Yang plam.
Palm technics always come in pair. which is a Yang Palm and Yin Palm. using the double push palm technology.
The WCK’s Tan Sau is based on sealing off philosophy of Emei 12 Zhuang.
So, they really doesnt add up to say Tan Sau Ng is good in Tan Sau and create WCK.
I really don’t think in terms of snake and crane or shaolin or any of that stuff. so none of it seems to matter to me.
I think that Ng developed his tan sao system to where he was good at it. Legandary? I don’t think the other forms came into being until others decided to train in it. Probably added as time went by. If you think of it, the names of the forms will tell you that. Sil Lim I was told meant, use a bit of imagination. And I did. I guess everyone did because from lineage to lineage you will see that the forms are completely different. The forms I learned do not look like those of Ip or others. It is unique to my own lineage. However, that is only the form, the weapons and basic principals are much the same. I think people like Mr. Hung were the benefactors of the forms. There again, speculation like everything else.
I think that the physics of the human body involved in WC might also be an addition made by the accrobats of the Red Boat troups. I think that is when it moved away from the snake crane aspects.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1153873]I really don’t think in terms of snake and crane or shaolin or any of that stuff. so none of it seems to matter to me.
I think that Ng developed his tan sao system to where he was good at it. Legandary? I don’t think the other forms came into being until others decided to train in it. Probably added as time went by. If you think of it, the names of the forms will tell you that. Sil Lim I was told meant, use a bit of imagination. And I did. I guess everyone did because from lineage to lineage you will see that the forms are completely different. The forms I learned do not look like those of Ip or others. It is unique to my own lineage. However, that is only the form, the weapons and basic principals are much the same. I think people like Mr. Hung were the benefactors of the forms. There again, speculation like everything else.
I think that the physics of the human body involved in WC might also be an addition made by the accrobats of the Red Boat troups. I think that is when it moved away from the snake crane aspects.[/QUOTE]
Jack,
It would be great if you could share your set with youtube.
The history of any MA is always fascinating. One could find snake and crane in many kung fu and karate schools. The myth of Wing Chun is in this article.
In Martial Arts history, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun are two different separate entities of Martial artists. Fong Wing Chun’s Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is part of Fokien Counties White Crane Style type. Why is it then that future generations spread rumors that Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen and Canton’s Wing Chun Kuen have any correlations to one another? There are 3 specific reasons why this is so: Reason number 1, the Weng Chun in Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is a name of a specific place. Not a specific martial arts style type. Reason number 2, Fong Wing Chun is a person’s name, not a specific martial arts style type. And reason number 3, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun, both has the same First name but different last names. Both individuals have different martial arts style types. White Crane Kuen simply is White Crane, and Wing Chun Kuen simply is Wing Chun Kuen. Then why are people in future generations confused over the misconception that Wing Chun Kuen spawned from Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen? Because the inter-reasons indicate that Wing Chun Kuen’s hand tecniques contain those of Crane style and Snake style hand techniques. But Crane Style and Snake style hand techniques are existent in many martial arts forms within China. Therefore, it does not represent that Wing Chun Kuen and White Crane Kuen came from the same origin. There are numerous accounts that exist in the martial arts world such examples of mis-spread rumors of miswritten as . The author is Fokien White Crane Boxer ‘s successor’s. <Fokien Martial Arts Columnist>
[QUOTE=kentchang;1153925]The history of any MA is always fascinating. One could find snake and crane in many kung fu and karate schools. The myth of Wing Chun is in this article.
…[/QUOTE]
In my opinion,
to compare one chinese martial art to other one,
one needs to take a look at hand technics body kung/ engine and momentum style/ dynamic strucutre. all three in the same time.
adding with the chinese history and the location of the art. one then can see what is very likely.
the above article is obviously have not going through indepth investigation of the hand technics, body kung, and dynamic structure. not to mention the comparision of Kuen Kuit.
Wing Chun does origin from White Crane of Fujian.
the White Crane expert GM Lee Kong has published his article publicly on the evolution of Fujian White Crane.
I myself has compared the 1850 SLT kuen kuit with the 1700’s White crane of Fujian classical writing. and there is matches.
to be specific, the pre 1800 White crane of Fujian technic ----- Zhao Yang sau and Zhao Yang Shih or the facing sun hand and facing sun momentum, is adapted in WCK.
this facing sun term existed in the Yik Kam 1850 SLT kuen kuit.
here is the description of the facing sun momentum
<> <> : .
brief ranslate to
facing sun momentum is one of the earliest White Crane of fujian momentum style. it is the 5th within the early 15 momentum styles of Fang Chi Nian’s white crane teaching.
Zhao Yang. the fifth of the white crane method. what ever momentum comes. one can apply this momentum sytle, let the frontal attack passed and directly attack him side way.
the following clip is a today’s intepretation of the facing sun momentum in Wing Chun Kuen. see for yourself what it is.
So, if one dig deep one will see. it is not a matter of hand shape or hand technics. one needs to look into the hand technics, body engine, and momentum style.
Jeebus Hendrick, what the heck are you even talking about??
And where did you get all this Shaolin and taan sau Ultimate crap from? Boy, when they let you out of the padded room, all he!! breaks loose doesn’t it… :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1153873]I really don’t think in terms of snake and crane or shaolin or any of that stuff. so none of it seems to matter to me. [/QUOTE]
Haha, me neither. WCK is so much beyond this type of thinking IMO.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1153873]I think that Ng developed his tan sao system to where he was good at it. Legandary? I don’t think the other forms came into being until others decided to train in it. Probably added as time went by. If you think of it, the names of the forms will tell you that. Sil Lim I was told meant, use a bit of imagination. And I did. I guess everyone did because from lineage to lineage you will see that the forms are completely different. The forms I learned do not look like those of Ip or others. It is unique to my own lineage. However, that is only the form, the weapons and basic principals are much the same. I think people like Mr. Hung were the benefactors of the forms. There again, speculation like everything else.[/QUOTE]
I would really enjoy seeing your forms. have you ever recorded them? I understand though if that is not in your interest.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1153873] I think that the physics of the human body involved in WC might also be an addition made by the accrobats of the Red Boat troups. [/QUOTE]
Interesting. Not sure I would agree 100% as there are lineages that do not trace themselves back through the Red Boat troupes.
HFY does not, yet much of what is taught in HFYWCK is very much based on understanding the physics of the human body. Our Sup Ming Dim (10 bright points) is key, or ‘road-map’, to learning and understanding how the various body parts can be aligned to achieve strong structure thru proper reference point in space.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1153873] I think that is when it moved away from the snake crane aspects.[/QUOTE]
I agree that WCK was a move away from these things like animal styles. I am sure snake and crane has influence in WCK, but so did many other styles/technologies of the time. In HFY we see eagle and dragon ‘flavors’ as well, among others. But none of them are the system themselves.
IMO, true understanding of WCK is that it was to move away from those things and focus more on science and physics for understanding how to operate/fight as a human being (as you mentioned), and not an animal - WCK is not an animal style system. So, anyone arguing that it is, is really living in the past by arguing a moot point and is really lost on what WCK truly is.
[QUOTE=kentchang;1153925]In Martial Arts history, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun are two different separate entities of Martial artists. Fong Wing Chun’s Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is part of Fokien Counties White Crane Style type. Why is it then that future generations spread rumors that Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen and Canton’s Wing Chun Kuen have any correlations to one another? There are 3 specific reasons why this is so: Reason number 1, the Weng Chun in Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is a name of a specific place. Not a specific martial arts style type. Reason number 2, Fong Wing Chun is a person’s name, not a specific martial arts style type. And reason number 3, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun, both has the same First name but different last names. Both individuals have different martial arts style types. White Crane Kuen simply is White Crane, and Wing Chun Kuen simply is Wing Chun Kuen. Then why are people in future generations confused over the misconception that Wing Chun Kuen spawned from Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen? Because the inter-reasons indicate that Wing Chun Kuen’s hand tecniques contain those of Crane style and Snake style hand techniques. But Crane Style and Snake style hand techniques are existent in many martial arts forms within China. Therefore, it does not represent that Wing Chun Kuen and White Crane Kuen came from the same origin. There are numerous accounts that exist in the martial arts world such examples of mis-spread rumors of miswritten as . The author is Fokien White Crane Boxer ‘s successor’s. <Fokien Martial Arts Columnist>[/QUOTE]
Now this makes infinitely more sense than Hendrik’s wildly extrapolated surmisings.
Snake and crane style hand movements are widely dispersed across many martial arts styles originating from China. To name a few - hung gar, lohan, 5 animals, northern longfist. Some of this is reflected in one of WCK’s sister arts - weng chun.
As far as Hendrik’s suggestions to look “deeper” into body engine and momentum style, and his supporting video using sifu Gary Lam’s illustration of basically slipping a punch combined with traditional widespread Chinese 5 element terminology, that exists nowhere but in Hendrik’s mind.
You can see similar types of body mechanics to what Hendrik shows in his SLT video where he does one-handed illustrations of flowing movements in sections of SLT - you can see that type of flow in mantis boxing and hung gar.
Gary Lam’s illustration of slipping the first attack motion and intercepting the 2nd or 3rd is widely present in western boxing as well as muy thai.
Originally Posted by Wayfaring
Now this makes infinitely more sense than Hendrik’s wildly extrapolated surmisings.
Snake and crane style hand movements are widely dispersed across many martial arts styles originating from China. To name a few - hung gar, lohan, 5 animals, northern longfist. Some of this is reflected in one of WCK’s sister arts - weng chun.
As far as Hendrik’s suggestions to look “deeper” into body engine and momentum style, and his supporting video using sifu Gary Lam’s illustration of basically slipping a punch combined with traditional widespread Chinese 5 element terminology, that exists nowhere but in Hendrik’s mind.
You can see similar types of body mechanics to what Hendrik shows in his SLT video where he does one-handed illustrations of flowing movements in sections of SLT - you can see that type of flow in mantis boxing and hung gar.
Gary Lam’s illustration of slipping the first attack motion and intercepting the 2nd or 3rd is widely present in western boxing as well as muy thai.
Hendrik almost always stammers when he talks about the history of WCK.
Originally Posted by Hendrik
my interest in the history of WCK particulary the creation of SLT the long set in the red boat era, prio to the Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets , is to be able to know what type of training and development is in the art and what is the result could be expected.
To a casual observer, your statement seems to be no big deal. However, it is important try to be objective when listening to someone. “Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets” Did you make an inference from your imagination or did you get this story directly from Yik Kam? As a matter of fact, these three forms of SNT, CK, BJ are all found within many WCK families, including Wong Wah-Bo, Leung Yee-Tai, Dai Dong-Fang of Pow Fa Lien lineage etc. The problem has been fixed to Yik Kam’s SLT, but not WCK completely.
In the history of WCK, how many WCK families have quarrels over this Omei chi gung exercises? Almost none! So what’s Yik Kam’s SLT exactly? No CK, no BJ, just some imcompete WCK techniques mixed with some Omei chi gung exercises. But you ignored this fact: Wong Wah-Bo and many other WCK ancestors got nothing to do with this Omei chi gung exercises, SLT at all.
[QUOTE=kentchang;1153973]“Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets”
[/QUOTE]
It has been confirm in this forum, by the decendent of Leung Jan lineage, on WWB/LJ breaking up a long set to make the three sets.
No one needs to agree with me. I am always open to everyone’s ideas ; and welcome disagreement with me.
However,
I expect those who has different ideas provide trace able specific details such as I have done. from the snake and crane section, to emei snake engine, to the facing Sun momentum style of White Crane of Fujian.
Opinion without a traceable source such as the article you post above is a personal opinion. there is nothing wrong with that for everyone can have their opinion. however, when it gets into the research of tcma one needs the support traceable evidence.
IE:
1, snake and crane section is traceable in all wck lineage. one also sees Ip Man’s and others lineages’ signature in the snake section.
2, Zhao Yan ( facing sun momentum style of White Crane of Fujian ) is traceable in Yik Kam kuen kuit, Yik Kam SLT set, WCK woodern dummy set practice, applications such as in sifu Gary Lam’s application demo.
3, The five finger tracing taiji technics of Emei 12 Zhuang very specifically, is trace able in Ku Lo Fung Family, YKS, Wong Yin Nim…ect lineages of WCK.
again, one doesnt have to buy what I brought up.
I am seriously waiting for different solution support by evidence in TCMA history to explain the above 3 issues and more.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1153923]Jack,
It would be great if you could share your set with youtube.[/QUOTE]
Hendrik, I don’t have a video camera, but if I can come up with something and can manage to get something done I will try to put it on utube for you.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1153996]Hendrik, I don’t have a video camera, but if I can come up with something and can manage to get something done I will try to put it on utube for you.[/QUOTE]
Jack,
Thanks and appreciate!
It is a meaningful project because this preserve your line of art. And that is important.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1153942]Haha, me neither. WCK is so much beyond this type of thinking IMO.
I would really enjoy seeing your forms. have you ever recorded them? I understand though if that is not in your interest.
Interesting. Not sure I would agree 100% as there are lineages that do not trace themselves back through the Red Boat troupes.
HFY does not, yet much of what is taught in HFYWCK is very much based on understanding the physics of the human body. Our Sup Ming Dim (10 bright points) is key, or ‘road-map’, to learning and understanding how the various body parts can be aligned to achieve strong structure thru proper reference point in space.
My reason for thinking acrobats is that one needs to have a very good understanding of the human physical dynamics in order to do some of the things they do. This would sort of explain why Wing Chun seems to be engineered by people of science and physics.
Wing Chun is just about the easiest thing to learn physically, and you can maintain it even into old age. Every move is actually natural to the human structure. You can naturally do more, and with greater accuracy and speed, when doing something that is completely natural to your own body movements.
Being perfectly honest, I know very little about the how and where of Wing Chun outside my own system. My dad taught many people as well as his own children. I have only passed it on to a hand full of people outside my son and grand children. I have only become aware of all the other lineages since signing on to this forum. I can immediately recognize Wing Chun when I see it, even if the sets are different. But, anything I say may not mean much.
As I told Hendrik, I will try to get a video camera and put up a clip of my sil lim set.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1153748]Thanks Joy.
Personally I have never paid that much attention tot he history of ANY MA, perhaps because I know how “loose” many people are with their views of history of their own systems and how much gray area there truly is in EVERY MA system.
Also because what has been done before has nothing to do with what is being done now ( or lacktherof).
However I do know that for some this stuff is very important but I think that if it is that important then that it must be researched in the correct way.[/QUOTE]
This is so true, even in JKD there is deviation and it’s only been around for less than 50 years and a few of Bruce’s original students are still around. Luckily we are able to get multiple accounts to get a general sense of JKD history, but I can’t imagine doing that for something that may or may not have happened over 200 years ago.
Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Bo
If I remember correctly, My dad was born in 1880. He was old when I came along. In 1965 he died from diabetes at 85 years old. He was a Boxer in 1900 and barely missed the headsman. Later he fled the Canton area and went to Hong Kong in 49 to escape the Communists. From there he came to the states. He told me that he learned Hung Fa from ex-soldiers. They were working members of a tong gang. The stuff I related might or might not have been true, but it does make sense to me at least. These things he told me. Now I am old. Or getting old.
Originally Posted by Savi
I’m intrigued, Lee Chiang Po! From what I have learned of my kung fu family’s history our 4th generation inheritor Hung Gun Biu Tong Zyu was the leader of the Hung Gun Wui during the mid 1850’s. According to our history, he taught combat methods to his men which at the time he referred to as Hung Fa Kuen. During the 1870’s, upon his retirement he bestowed the name of his family art, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen.
After reading this thread I found some very interesting similarities from these non Yip Man WCK lineages. Both independently reported that their WCK lineages gave credit to Hung Fa Boxing. Specifically with the references about Hung Fa and WCK, these parallel accounts of wing chun history tend to be much more credible. No doubt these research sources can be considered more genuine for the project into the WCK history of the Red Flower Boxer society and Tan Sao Ng.
I am not impressed with cherry picking approaches to history-wherein you begin with a preferred conclusion and then pick and choose evidence-often regarding opinions and lineage histories as evidence of a grand thesis or several theses..
Regarding slt, ck and bj–among advanced Ip Man lines those are stages of learning
as each stage is mastered. And BTW LJ was IM’s sigung.
When I am working out by myself I often choose to do all three forms sequentially as one single form-no big deal,
You can master a text chapter by chapter until you learn the whole book.
This thread has snaked it’s way into pits of pseudo histories. IMO of course.
joy chaudhuri
My teacher Master Leung extrapolated (laughingly) that Yim Wing Chun is actually Tan Sau Ng pretending to be a woman to avoid being caught. He presented a whole list of very convincing reasons at the time but I couldn’t remember anything because we were all drunk 
I love a good yarn. I don’t really care whether they are true or not, as long as they are entertaining. It adds colour and sometimes even hidden meanings. I hate, however political stories tho (boring).
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1153792]I don’t know if the generation thing really matters when we are discussing Martial nicknames does it?? Just speculating. And FWIW ‘Wu’ is 5 too. So can anyone provide the Chinese characters for his name, like, anyone?
He is a mystery, as is this Tan Sau Ng ‘legend’ as I have heard that could have been a nickname for Ng Mui too, and ‘he’ could have been the first openly gay Monk.
And hasn’t anyone heard the one about the opium den being the centre of ALL legends associated with Wing Chun?? And guess who owned an opium den?
For all we know Ng Jung So, Tan Sau Ng & Beggar So are the same person and that actually makes some sense I think 
If we are looking for facts, wasn’t it the Yiu Family who housed Ng Jung So in his later years, like the Fungs did for Leung Jan? Ng Jung So even had kids, so there is every chance his family lives on to this day (and I will say the same for Wing Chun!)[/QUOTE]Is this just a pet theory of yours Spencer? Based on what? Ng Jung So is just another CHAN Wah Sun student, who features in the personal training history of Yip Man. I don’t know why you need to dress him up in a semi-mythical figure’s clothing?
Tan Sau Ng: [SIZE=“3”][/SIZE]
Ng Jung So: [SIZE=“3”][/SIZE]
It was Ip Chun himself who dug up historical evidence of Cheung Ng (Tan Sau Ng) in the records of the Cantonese Opera.