Gee it’s funny Oso,
I ask a legitimate question in an attempt to glean info on which came first..the chicken or the egg..er..I mean the 7 star and the rest..and I get accused of being a troll? :eek: :rolleyes:
I’d sure like to know where I took a swipe at anyones style/lineage or teacher eh?
didn’t say you took a swipe at anyone’s lineage…but, well, just a hunch on my part…we’ll see…if not, my apologies.
In my research, Shaolin had the Kanjia Quan style, it’s third set is called the Tang Lang Zhao (Mantis Claws), it is also called Jingang Shou (Warrior Hands). This set has a chopping motion.
Supposedly this Tang Lang Zhao set spread to Shandong province at some point, and is practiced in the Laizhou Province there by the Shaolin Mei Hua Men style.
So, it interesting that:
"The book Chang’s Pugilist Volume (Chang Shi Wu Ji Shu), Published in Henan sometime during the Chien Long reign (1736-1795) of the Qing dynasty is the first verifiable known reference of Wang Lang, the supposed creator of the style.
IT says:
"Wang Lang chops the earth.
Shoot the body up.
Lower down the pair of swords.
Crouch the body chop the earth."
The only thing to tie this quote to the WL of Mantis is the word “chop” since old mantis is described as being a way to apply chopping strikes."
Furthermore, in Laizhou, which I think is an early source of Mei Hua Tang Lang, the Shaolin Mei Hua Men includes a set called 32 Posture Duanda, which is also known as Taizhu Chang Quan 32 postures set. This style developed after the early 1700s, before Chang’s Pugilist Volume was written.
This Mei Hua Men style’s sets came from the Wu Quan / Luohan Quan system of Shaolin.
Taizhu Chang Quan is one of the 18 styles listed in the Luohan Duanda manual.
[QUOTE=mantis108;908376]Well, I think Kevin did a good job and I believe the point really is that no Kung Fu is created in a vacuum.
My take on the Greater Meihwa Line is as follow:
The greater Meihwa (plum blossom) lineage consists main of 3 major branches and their hybrid styles. The three major branches are Grand Ultimate (TJPM), Plum Blossom (MHPM) and Grand Ultimate Plum Blossom (TJMHPM).
Basically TJPM, MHPM and TJMHPM are from the same source namely, Liang XueXiang (1810 - 1895 CE) Back then, Tanglangquan as we know was just that - Tanglangquan. It is believe that Liang opened up the system and taken on a lot of students. Some of which were accomplished martial artists as well. This is very important in the development of Liang’s PM lines. He was based in Laiyang County in Shandong. Many people traveled to train under him and would later on teach at other locations. One of the popular locations was Yantai County, the old capital of Shandong, where prosperity was.
Among the many students that Liang had, there were Jiang Hualong, Sun Yuanchang, Hao Hun (?) etc… Jiang Hualong (was one of the most famous students among them. He would then teach in Yantai County and he was among the first to give his branch a designation - Meihwa Tanglang. His other peers such as Sun Yuanchang would either go by Tanglangquan or Taiji Tanglang if they originally learnt from Liang Xuexiang in Laiyang. Hao Hun would later identify his branch as Taiji Meihwa Tanglang. It is believed that Jiang Hualong designated his line Meihwa Tanglang in the early part of his martial art career and it is mainly used by his lineages in Yantai. Other lineages of Liang from Laiyang would use the Taiji Tanglang name. In some cases Meihwa and Taiji designations are interchangeable, such as the lineage of Sun Yuanchang, who is believed to be the most senior student of Liang,
The question then comes to why only Taiji, Meihwa or Taiji Meihwa but not other names are used in these lineages? It is believed that has to do with Liang’s manuscripts (Quanpu). In the Quanpu, it is first defined in an entry called “Tanglang Ji Ti” (Profile of Praying Mantis) that plum blossom grand ultimate hands (fist in one version) is consisted of winter roosters steps and monkey stance. It is clear that the lineage designation convention is following this entry in the Quanpu.
It is believed that later Jiang Hualong and his confidant-student, Song Zide, saw the need to “canonize” Liang’s teaching as a response to the trend that other Liang’s students “incorporating” their own training with Liang’s Tanglang. As a matter of fact, Jiang himself had his own idea of development which resulted in his brain child - Babu Tanglang. Thus, Taiji Tanglang would mean to some people as a lineage from Liang Xuexiang to Jiang Hualong to Song Zide’s lineage(s) specifically.
There is a view that Liang might have knowledge of Taijiquan. It is said that in certain Taiji Meihwa traditions, one can find Taijiquan’s attributes. Note that that word “Taiji” came first as an accent which is different from order of the Quanpu. Personally, I haven’t come across anything substantial to support the theory that Liang did incorporate Taijiquan into his teaching. However, it is of note that there is a curious point about the original character that was used for the Bengbu (Crash and Fill) form. The word “Beng” (mountain radical on top of friend radical) today is “crash”. I have came across another “Beng” (a hand radical next to friend radical as in Beng Jing) that is well known to the Taijiquan people. If this character was really used in the originally Quanpu, then it could be a good indication of GM Liang might have knowledge of Taijiquan or he might have heard about it. The meaning of Bengbu would change somewhat from “Crash and Fill” to roughly “connecting to opponent’s power structure" and fill (attack) the gap (weakness) of that structure. But as it stands, I would not think that GM Liang’s Tanglang had anything to do with Taijiquan.
I think a lot of the differences materialized because of the different methodologies which are based in the teaching philosophies of the various masters. For example, the older version of TJPM based more on a body of techniques which are collectively known as Mishou (some seem to suggest that this is rather a form). This explains why it used to be very few students that the Grandmasters would accept and transmit the system to mainly an individual as oppose to many students. From there came Luanjie and Bazhou (during GM Liang XueXiang’s time when he decided to accept a large number of students). Then one of the most intriguing form cometh, Laiyang Beng Bu, or Xiao Beng Bu, which could have been created to hide the Luanjie or simply it could have been a creation of the Jiang Hualong line sometime around the same time that he/they created the Meihwa Lu form (plum blossom path). We know of another version of Beng Bu, which is the most recognizable PM form of all time, was mentioned in Liang’s Quanpu as early as 1842 CE. Since it is taught in Yantai County, the old capital of Shandong, it is also called the Yantai Beng Bu. Its original name Da Beng Bu is now rarely in use. Finally a prototypical version of Zhai Yao was created. It is then further developed into 7 sections. At the core, the training philosophy is deeply rooted in Mishou where individual techniques are practiced mano a mano in most hardcore closed quarter combat manner. This I have a taste of from my training in CCK TCPM which is a branch of TJPM. In a way, forms were created to keep other students entertained while the masters work closely with a selected number of students (1 or 2) in the Mishou type of training. If we look at the 12 Characters of Taiji (Meihwa), we see that they are somewhat of an encoded series of drills of conceptual nature, which are expressed through various combinations of techniques (ie Feng Shou has gou-lou-cai in it).
BTW, the Wang Lang story is based on the myth of “White Ape Steal the Peach” as far as I am concern. The White Ape myth is widely known throughout China; therefore is not surprising to find version(s) of it referenced in older works.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Mantis108[/QUOTE]
If somehow Mei hua Tang Lang and Taji Mei Hua Tang Lang was influenced by the earlier LiaZhou Shaolin Mei Hua Men style, the connection to what appears to act like “taiji Quan” was their soft hand nei gongs and the Taizhu Chang Quan sets that they practiced. At that time period TZ Chang Quan was an internal style, pretty much it was prototypical versions of movements now seen in Tajiquan.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;917852] Shaolin had the Kanjia Quan style, it’s third set is called the Tang Lang Zhao (Mantis Claws), it is also called Jingang Shou (Warrior Hands).
the Shaolin Mei Hua Men includes a set called 32 Posture Duanda, which is also known as Taizhu Chang Quan 32 postures set.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for posting that, very interesting!
Any Youtube examples of this?
[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;917964]Thanks for posting that, very interesting!
Any Youtube examples of this?[/QUOTE]
Modern day people would exaggerate the movements and make them look like modern wushu long fist.
Also, it’s not Han Qing Tang’s Taizhu Chang Quan set, I researched that set, it is originally from Yan Qing Mi Zhong style.
It should be related to the TZ Chang Quan and the Long Fist in 2 Roads sets that Gao taught. I researched those sets and they are from Tongbei Quan originally.
What it should look like is a fast and slow, hard and soft, alternating version of Chen taiji 1st set (Yi Lu), with the internal circular movement making external circles of the arms happen. Small circles inside big circles outside (long fist); big circles inside, small circles outside (duanda).
That would be the large making the small, the small making the large as described in the “Luohan Duanda” manuals.
Like this, Jin Gang Quan, which is very related to TZ Chang Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSRzgdC5bfk
Here’s the Tongbei version of a very similar set, Tongbei Quan would do this very fast like Mantis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6Si3zloG6w
here’s some of the actual Taizhu Long Rising Fists 32 Short Hands (Duanda) set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N83nCaFXh3M&NR=1
I was on some Chinese websites for Tanglang, there were articles about this Laizhou Taizhu Men and since it mentioned this Tanglang Zhao set that was from Shoalin originally.
It’s pretty primitive hook hand movements in the set.
Since the set came to Shandong during the 1730s-1760s, something to think about or explore was that Li Bingxiao from Lai area was from that time period or a little later and his tanglang was pretty much described like this Tanglang Zhao set. He didn’t have a myriad of routines, mostly a set of loose techniques.
Perhaps his Meihua Tanglang is connected to this Shandong Laizhou Shaolin Meihua Men system?
Chinese Tanglang website
Hey Sal,
You talking about this article:
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Article/Wushu%20Article/1720061102181332.html ?
[QUOTE=Qixing Tanglang;918735]Hey Sal,
You talking about this article:
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Article/Wushu%20Article/1720061102181332.html ?[/QUOTE]
Yes, one of them.
Sal - you have a habit of leaving out your sources?
The article sourced above describes some of the variants of Shaolin Taizu in Shandong and North East China which was interesting. But it never says Tanglang Shisan Zhao originally comes from Shaolin. Don’t know where you pulled that from?
Old Tanglang has its roots in many regional boxing systems of Shandong. This would also include some local rendition of Shaolin Taizu.
[QUOTE=Qixing Tanglang;919030]Sal - you have a habit of leaving out your sources?
The article sourced above describes some of the variants of Shaolin Taizu in Shandong and North East China which was interesting. But it never says Tanglang Shisan Zhao originally comes from Shaolin. Dont know where you pulled that from?
Old Tanglang has its roots in many regional boxing systems of Shandong. This would also include some local rendition of Shaolin Taizu.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, yes, I got Tanglang Zhao information from multiple other sources, mostly material about Shaolin.
I’ve been investigating the Shaolin Kanjia Quan style, it’s third set is named officially “San Jian Zhu Ge”, but it is called by practitioners in Henan the “Tang Lang Zhao” set, also called “Jingang Shou” set (depending on the time periods).
The set of Kanjia Quan sets left Shaolin between 1730s and 1780s, when the shrine areas of Shaolin were shut down and destroyed by the emperor, who okayed a renovation of the Shaolin temple grounds. Thus, he was able to rid Shaolin area of the anti-Qing rebels who hid out there and posed as Shaolin martial monks.
The Kanjia was guard house martial arts sets, practiced by lookouts.
These “martial monks” and rebels went to Shandong province during this time.
I had people ask questions to the present day lineage head of Henan Xingong Quan, who still practice some of the old sets. Only a small area of Henan practices these old sets. According to them, this Tangland Zhao set was primitive hook hands mixed in with the long fist movements and from there it went to a small area of Shandong province, where it is still practiced by a very few.
Also, that article about Laizhou Shaolin Taizhu Mei Hua Men style that practices the Tanglang Zhao set, that article clearly says that Cheng Li Xian received the sets from Shaolin monks, and looking at the list of sets it practiced and comparing them to other shaolin manuals, some kind of dating can be figured out.
For that I used these as sources: Hand Combat Classic, Hand -Combat Method Collection (Quan Jing; Quan Fa Beiyao), with a preface of 1784 by Cao Huandou, and Xuanji’s Secret Transmission of Acupuncture Points Hand - Combat Formulas (Xuanji Mi Shou Xuedao Quan Jue), with preface by Zhang Ming. these books were published in the 1700s, but the prefaces state that they were written about 100 years earlier by their actual writer.
Some Shaolin based styles in Henan and Shandong practiced a set called Yuejia Duanda Chui (Yue Family Close Strike Hammers). These books were annotated versions of an earlier book from about about 100 years earlier by Zhang Kongzhao (style: Hengqiu), who studied his Shaolin method with Zhang Ming (who is given as author of the preface to Xuanjis Secret Transmissions book)
In the late Ming Dynasty, the Yuejia Duanda Chui was practiced at Shaolin (perhaps also in one of the other branches of the main location in Henan Province). At some point, Shaolin monks traveling in the Yingkou area of Liaoning province, in northeastern China, passed on a system of what appears to be Mi Quan and Shaolin Wu Quan sets south to Cheng (Sheng) Lixian () of Shandong province. The system he brought home and practiced in the Laizhou () village was later named Shaolin Meihua Men. Some of the sets that they practiced were Taizhu Quan, Tang Lang 13 Zhao, Xiao Hu Yan, Yuejia Chui, Heihu Quan, Meihua Quan, Da Hong Quan, and 8 Drunken Immortals, among others: , , , , , , , and . The weapon sets were taizhu and Plum Flower based implements: , , , , , (), , and . This Yuejia Chui set is what eventually eventually developed into the Yue Shi Bafan Shou set as it was spread into Shandong and then north into Hebei province, where this set is most prevalent now.
The list of sets clearly show that the sets came from the 1700s era martial arts of that area, some of the sets are from Meihua Zhuang, a style practiced by anti-Qing rebels, some of the sets are from Mi Quan, and all of the sets were originally from hand written quanpu I have seen that come from Shaolin Wu Quan system originally, from about the 1500s, descendents of Yi Guan’s students, such as the founder of Choi Gar Kune (Cai Jia Quan in Mandarin).
ALSO< the Henan Shaolin people practice a 13 Zhao (claws) set, its creation attributed to Baiyufeng.
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;918672]
Since the set came to Shandong during the 1730s-1760s, something to think about or explore was that Li Bingxiao from Lai area was from that time period or a little later and his tanglang was pretty much described like this Tanglang Zhao set. He didn’t have a myriad of routines, mostly a set of loose techniques.
Perhaps his Meihua Tanglang is connected to this Shandong Laizhou Shaolin Meihua Men system?[/QUOTE]
I know you guys don’t like for "outsiders’ (though I learned Mantis from the late Charles Chen when he had his Wutang School in Parsippany NJ about 10 years ago) to get involved in your affairs.
But, don’t you think it warrants that people investigate Laizhou Shaolin Mei Hua Men style’s founder Sheng / Cheng (same character used for two different dialect pronunciations) Li Xian and the possibility that he was connected to the legendary Sheng Xiao “Daoren”, as they would be both from the same time period?
Especially since Li Bingxiao of Meihua Tanglang was from the same area as well?
And that the Shaolin Meihua Men system had stuff like Bafan Shan’s Yuhuan Bu and Yuanyang Jiao? Which Shandong Mantis has as well?