Hi Eric Ling

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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Hahaha, and to think that all I wanted is to discover is what style of kung fu or kung fu topic folks would like to see in action.

I realize that but couldn’t help having a little rant. Since I am getting a bit off topic from the intent of that thread, I open this one instead. Hope you don’t mind. :slight_smile:

Robert, you are truly an amazing person; CKF needs more of you.

Thank you, my friend. :slight_smile: I am only speaking my mind. I appreciate the compliments and I am sure the feeling is mutual.

Yes living with one leg stuck in the past is not going to move you any forward. I understand your point.

But don’t you think remembering and honoring efforts by past teachers is also an obligation?

Well, I think honoring our past teachers (an obligation indeed) is one thing; bringing honor to our past teachers is another. If you have a son and you gave him 100 taels of gold, how would you want him to honor you (assuming you can see all his actions while you pass on to the infinite)?

a) he lock the gold up and only brings it out to dust it once awhile and show it in front of your alter? Yet he tells everyone that you have given him the gold for keep sake. He gets the envy of everyone.

b) he spent in on building memorial after memorial for you until all the gold is gone.

c) he invest all of it and remembering all the investment lessons that you taught him and he makes 10 times or more of the initial gold that you gave him. Now his spent it on the community (education, infrastructures, etc). Everyone benefited and has extra income to contribute to build a Town Hall to celebrate in your honor.

I definitely chose C - bring honor to our ancestors by investing in the future.

Unfortunately sometimes “traditions” becomes a political tool for other ends.

traditions is meant to be the scarboard of the sword. To seath it, from extreme weather conditions. It’s never meant to be a shield that work side by side with the sword on the battle field of life. Unfortunately, some people with little skill mistakenly wield it as the shield to safe the own ego. But then if you wield it skillfully it’s a darn good compliment to the sword. So…

I left Wu-Lin to run its own course because that’s the direction it was taking. Sentiments like my style is more pure and only the Chinese can do kung fu right are beginning to sprout. Since I said at the outset of Wu-Lin not to shut it down, I stop participating and left it running on its own steam.

Right, but without the hand that guides and aides it, it’s just an arrested development.

Not going to go into what style or method is the best simply because I think this is immature thinking.

I hear you. :slight_smile:

As far as conforming to clans and family edicts is concerned, my response is that you cannot generalize the situation. We all want to be creative and innovative in our own ways but certain protocols still need to be observed.

You are right … Observing protocols is important, honoring our ancestors, respecting the commands of the elders, etc … these are virtue of most Asian countries. But at the same time we must strive to make them understand we can craft out a future on our own. The world and not just a mere country in Asia alone is our chess board . They must know that We only wish to leave the community and the world a better places with what we inherited from them. Traditional knowledge is an inheritance and a foundation for the future. They should be happy to deem tradition as the best investment tool that they have given us and we will be responsible to make it even more grand for the future. To use tradition as the magical disc that controls the monkey king, is only going to make the monkey king obey your bid in acquiring the sutra. It’s never going to convert it to a Bodhisattva without its free will as an input. I don’t think you would be happy as the monkey king with the remote control only to help bring back the sutra, would you? You would want to be a Bodhisattva by your own free will too, right?

No, not to be slaves but to be respectful.

That’s great to know. :slight_smile:

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

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Eric, could you please e-mail me or PM me? I have a question I would like to ask you.

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Hi Robert,

Thanks for the response.

I am sure by now you must have received some notifications from Evert regarding the project that we are working on. Not finalized yet but still I will love to hear that you are coming.

Okay back to the points you raised; I agree absolutely with your thoughts on the need for CKF to move forward. I also concur with the ways you outlined.

I suppose things are a little different for you in Canada and for me in SE Asia. In many aspects, the older generation here is relatively less liberal when it comes to opening up. Cant really comment about others but within my Fuzhou circle, things are still governed by protocols and traditions to a large extent.

Take my SiHing for instance; it took me forever to convince him to be filmed and even now, he is uncomfortable with showing the footages. I am given only so much leeway when it comes to portraying the arts to non-disciples regardless of race or creed.

When I first arrived in Kuching about 4 years ago, I did the necessary and visited many old teachers to present my credentials. I got polite enough receptions and its only quite recently that I am allowed into the inner circles. Its been 4 years after all..

So are these folks wrong?

Humbly, I dont think so Sir. Its just their way of life and its not really for anyone of us to judge. I learned to swim with the tide.

With this generation, I guess we enjoy the benefits of re-writing the rules of behavior so to speak. But again, we got to keep to certain norms as taught to us by our elders. Rules are there for a function; a little tweaking here and there is okay.

I raised quite a few eyebrows when I first taught Fuzhou Ancestral and Whooping Crane in the States. But when these folks realized that Americans are just as passionate and sincere in their quests, I got their backing. So soft selling might be the answer.

You, your obvious profound knowledge and attitude is exactly the catalyst and bridge needed to drive CKF to the next level. I compliment you for all your dedicated efforts.

TenTigers, my email is white88crane@yahoo.com and my Skype handle is eric88ling.

Regards.

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Hi Eric,

You are most welcome, my friend. It’s a great pleasure for me to exchange ideas with you.

I am sure by now you must have received some notifications from Evert regarding the project that we are working on. Not finalized yet but still I will love to hear that you are coming.

Indeed, I have. Thank you for the invitation. I am honoured and I am deeply touched by Evert’s email, which I would like to thank both of you from the bottom of my heart. I am putting a lot of though in schedueling. At this point there are some details (mostly work related) that I have to sort out. I realize that organization for such a project is not easy at all. I am very glad that you are taking on such a challenging task. I hope it will work out for it is definitely going to be all round good news for the Kung Fu community IMHO.

Okay back to the points you raised; I agree absolutely with your thoughts on the need for CKF to move forward. I also concur with the ways you outlined.

It’s wonderful to meet like minded people such as yourself. :slight_smile:

I suppose things are a little different for you in Canada and for me in SE Asia. In many aspects, the older generation here is relatively less liberal when it comes to opening up. Can’t really comment about others but within my Fuzhou circle, things are still governed by protocols and traditions to a large extent.

Yes, I do realize the environment and political atmosphere are very different. I do understand that Chinese culture at it’s core is conservative in nature. This is why Confucius preached tolerance.

Take my SiHing for instance; it took me forever to convince him to be filmed and even now, he is uncomfortable with showing the footages. I am given only so much leeway when it comes to portraying the arts to non-disciples regardless of race or creed.

I hear you. I think you have given a lot by spearheading project such as the Wulin forum and now the upcoming conference. Hopefully, you will inspire a change to open up the otherwise closed circle for promoting a great art on the world stage.

When I first arrived in Kuching about 4 years ago, I did the necessary and visited many old teachers to present my credentials. I got polite enough receptions and it’s only quite recently that I am allowed into the “inner” circles. It’s been 4 years after all…..

Patience indeed is a virtue, right? :slight_smile: Congratulations, my friend.

So are these folks wrong?

Humbly, I don’t think so Sir. It’s just their way of life and it’s not really for anyone of us to judge. I learned to swim with the tide.

You are right. I don’t mean to judge. At the same time I would bring things to their attention. If the message didn’t get through the first time, we would have to do it again and again. Time (the tide) waits for no one. As we see the development of NHB events, it took less than 2 decades for it to become popular and spread through worldwide. How old is Southern Kung Fu? We are at best holding onto the fringe area. There is no telling when it’s going to extinct if something is not done soon. Revival is now.

With this generation, I guess we enjoy the benefits of re-writing the rules of behavior so to speak. But again, we got to keep to certain norms as taught to us by our elders. Rules are there for a function; a little tweaking here and there is okay.

I agreed. I don’t think we need to bent the rules. I think we can achieve good results with good communication reassuring that the balance of respect for tradition and the quest for knowledge will always be there.

I raised quite a few eyebrows when I first taught Fuzhou Ancestral and Whooping Crane in the States. But when these folks realized that Americans are just as passionate and sincere in their quests, I got their backing. So soft selling might be the answer.

Passion and sincerity are the key. Yes, I agreed soft selling works better. I hope you will keep teaching these wonderful arts in the west.

You, your obvious profound knowledge and attitude is exactly the catalyst and bridge needed to drive CKF to the next level. I compliment you for all your dedicated efforts.

You are much too kind in your compliments, my friend. I can honestly return the same admiration and regards to you. :slight_smile:

Warm regards

Robert

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Hi Robert and TenTigers,

Thank you both for your message and email. Instead of replying in 2 places, I thought I do it simultaneously here. Ten, I hope this is alright with you. I wish to share my views openly.

WuLin I Jia

I think of all the lessons taught to me by my teachers, this ranks top. We are one family! We are one family, to me, means we treat one & another like kin using proper etiquette etc. And really this is taught in every culture and not unique to CKF. I mingle with many indigenous Silat Masters in Sarawak and Indonesia and these folks are really nice and warm. Their mannerisms speak volumes about their upbringing.

I want to add that integrity and honesty are also measure of a good CKF upbringing. Nothing irks me more than to meet those who lie about themselves and their kung fu. Personally, there is totally nothing with saying “I don’t know” or “I have never learned this”. I do that all the times here in Kuching and I got so much out of the many Crane and Hakka experts here by being straight about my lack of knowledge.

WuLin I Jia also implies that at one time we were also related to a same source or a few sources.

Ten, you are spot on with your observations and I will me more than happy to share the little that I know in your forum.

Don’t know about you guys but I find so much fun in trying to piece together the puzzle. Over the last couple of years, I have the good fortune of meeting Evert (Hungga & Hakka), Martin Watts (Yong Chun White Crane) and Russ Smith (Okinawa Goju Ryu/Kobujutsu) and we have such a great time in sharing and trying to see the big picture. I learned so much from these guys and it’s one of my objectives to expand the group to include more like-minded folks for even greater exchanges.

Robert, keeping CKF relevant and advancing it is a vocation. It calls for quite a bit of sacrifice (my wife would tell you that). But we love what we do and more importantly we love our teachers who imparted the skills to us. I am sure we took up a fair bit of their lifes.

So maybe this is a case of “having no choice when you are in jiang hu”

Robert & Ten,

Thank you.

Regards.

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Hey guys,

Thought I include a pic of myself. At least now you got a face to the name.

Pic 1 - This is me teaching “Babulien” to a class here in Kuching.

Pic 2 - Sifu Robert Siew in the same posture from his version of “Babulien”. Robert Siew is a student of the late GM Wang I Ying.

GM Wang was a very famous Whooping Crane Master here in Sarawak. Together with the late GM Huang Xing Xian, they were looked up to as “leaders” of the Fuzhou Wushu community here.

For those of you familiar with Southern Fukien Kung Fu history, you must have heard of “Ming Zhong He”. This is a “JinWu” type of an institution in Fukien. One of the arts taught within that organization was “Whooping Crane”.

Robert Siew is a tireless devoted teacher. An insurance salesperson in the day and a kung fu teacher in the evenings. Through Robert and his kung fu brothers, I was able to glimpse into “Whooping Crane” that is non-related to Xia Zhong Xian.

In fact back some 20 years ago, there was a White Crane study committee initiated by a group of Hong Kong CKF scholars and one of the focuses was the origination of BaiHe Quan.

I remember some of the Masters involved were:-

• GM Kan Teck Guan – Yong Chun Wu Zhu.Singapore
• GM Liu Yin Shan – Shihe Taiwan
• GM Zheng Wen Long – Yong Chun White Crane Hong Kong
• GM Huang I Ying – Ming Zhong He Sarawak

Like I mentioned in the “South Mantis Survey” thread, I got quite a bit of old print materials going back 50, 60 years.

Even older are materials brought out of mainland by my teachers and family. My dad and uncles are Ancestral/Whooping Crane boxers who learned their ropes in China before immigrating to SE Asia.

I hope to transfer all these old materials on-line for folks who are studying histories, theories and principles of CKF.

Only trouble is (playing Everly Brothers on my DVD machine) gee wheeze, I got only 24 hours a day.

Regards.

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Hi Eric,

Thanks for the pictures. It’s great to see a face with a name. :slight_smile:

Sifu Siew looks amazing. He’s definitely a treasure in the family. Please send my greetings and regards to him.

BTW, you’ve got mail. :slight_smile:

Warm regards

Robert

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Thanx Eric, nice to know that my rantings are finally being accepted-especially by someone who is actually knowledgeable on the subject. You have given me more inspiration with your few words than you will ever know, and I appreciate every little tidbit of info I get.
I was speaking with a CLF training brother who when seeing the san-sik from the sup bot dim kuen of Jook Lum, said that they are nearly identicle to the “deadly snake strikes” or something like that in Buk Sing CLF. Funny how two seemingly opposite systems would have startling similarities. I do see his hand, and it shares much of the same energies/sensitivities, but in a larger circle.
I now am tearing apart these san-sik, as well as the form to find the same similarities within my Hung Kuen.
The problem arises, and this too has been the subject of much discussion, is..
Is it CLF simply being influenced by SPM, is it Hung-Ga being played by a SPM guy or is it SPM played by a Hung-Ga guy? Is Chuang Tzu dreaming he is the butterfly, or is the Butterfly dreaming he is Chuang-Tzu?
When you touch hands with accomplished players, like I do in Chinatown’s park with the old men,you can’t help but absorb it into your being, thus into your Gung-Fu.

Then again..it may simply be the standard progression of learning!

oh, BTW…what’s the secret password???:confused: :confused:

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Hi Robert & Ten,

Thanks for that video clip. Very nice.

Reminds me of a Pak Gua technique. My friend in Denver, Wayne Welch - Fu style PK, does an almost identical sequence. He calls that back lifting kick a “mule kick”.

Taking the cue from you, I would be posting some White Crane application clips soon.

Ten, I am revamping the WuLin forum and everything should be up and running soon.

Okay back to your observations, my personal take:-

CLF is a fascinating style. I see equal play of long hands and short hands techniques. In many aspects resembling the other multi-styles system out of Canton and that’s Chow Gar (Chow Loong’s).

I have always wondered about the Li Gar portion of CLF. Well I have seen Choy Gar and Fut Gar up close here in SE Asia and I can see where CLF got all their palm skills and long hands methodologies from. But Li Gar is very elusive.

I know that there are both Cantonese and Hakka Li Gar out there. Talking to CKF veterans here, the opinion is pretty divided concerning the Li Gar element in CLF.

Maybe the answer you are looking for could be found in zooming in on the Li Gar portion?

Hungga is commonly perceived as having Fukien roots. Or to be more specific Nam Siu Lam. My interest has always been looking into the pre-Huang Fei Hung materials of Hungga.

This was my personal path; looking at development of Shaolin arts after Fukien. In my own limited views, I see Hungga as a configuration of Tiger, Lohan and Crane. And if I follow this track of thought, then I should be able to observe these styles singularly before developing into the Hungga we see today.

Again talking to friends and colleagues around here, I hear comments like “There is so much Hap Gar and Lama Pak Hok in Hungga” and “Hungga is all about energies (geng) and to fully appreciate Hungga fully, you got to look at Tit Sin”.

Must let you know that these folks are not armchair reviewers; some of them are from families involved in Hungga for many decades. I hope to feature them in this forum soon.

I think Robert (Mantis108) would tell you this; no art is totally independent in its creation and evolution. Just like the cross-training that you find so popular these days, there is no reason to believe that classical arts were created on top of isolated mountains and in some inaccessible caves with no outside influences. Maybe in WuXia novels…

Some Hakka arts are fine examples of folks moving and absorbing skills from everywhere they visited and settled throughout China.

The West sees mainly of Hakka arts that came out of Hong Kong. Well, Sarawak Chinese are predominantly Hakka, Fuzhou and Chawan Fukien.

Some of the Hakka arts here are very distinct and observing them up-close is thrilling imho.

I am personally acquainted with GM Liu Kao Chye; a highly respected Hakka Tiger Boxing master here. One of his elemental forms is “Fu Zhuang San Bo Jin” or “Tiger Style 3 steps forward”. After repeated viewings, I must say that it’s looking more and more like stuff I do in Fuzhou Ancestral Crane.

My point is that we got to stay open-minded and explore in the right spirit.

I noticed that in most forums, things tend to get a little unruly when histories are examined. I find this odd. In my environment, there is nothing belittling to admit that a style is a spin-off or derivative of another. If anything, this means we are family. The attitude is totally different here.

I meet Sifu Ku of Chu Gar Wing Chun every now and then in Singapore. Sifu Ku is a strong advocate of Wing Chun (at least his style) being an off-shoot of White Crane. Common enough view, you might say. But in this case, Sifu Ku is able to share subtle details from White Crane that only a White Crane disciple would have access to. It’s either that or in his Wing Chun, there exist many White Crane elements.

And on that platform, we are able to learn from one and other.

Ten, wait a little while – I am revamping WuLin at the moment. When it ready, we’ll talk more.

In the meantime, I got a couple of pics here showing my student in basic Ancestral Crane posture.

Pic 1 - my student doing “Moving Cloud to see the Moon”

Pic 2 - Me doing a Whooping Crane Chin Na technique.

Regards.

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Oooops, one more pic to share.

Evidence of unbridled sharing.

You see Sifu Sean Whittaker on the left there.

Sean is a Hakka Iron-Ox stylist from England – a very powerful man. Sean married a local Sarawakian and visits the in-laws once a year. I met up with Sean when he was in town last year.

A little beer and a whole lot of kung fu with this man – a brilliant evening!!

You see me doing a Tai Chor SanChiem technique in pic.

Regards.

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Hi Eric,

Long time no chat.
How are you?

some interesting new development with related to the Cho family WCK.

From the Kuen Kuit, we know that White Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang fuse and becomes the Siu Lien Tau. and recently, Jim met with Emei 12 Zhuang’s gate keeper and comfirm the possibility.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=107&mode=&order=0&thold=0

Enjoy!

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Hi Hendrik,

I am good and yourself?

You know about Bart Mann’s tragic accident?

I knew Bart well in Colorado; a superb Wing Chun Sifu and a wonderful person.

I was deeply shocked to hear about his passing, so sad….

In fact, one of Bart’s students, Chas Fisher, is also a White Crane student of mine.

Well my friend, when something like this happens, kind of make all the petty internet squabbling looks stupid.

Be well,

Regards.

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Hi,

Thought you guys might enjoy these pics from a old magazine.

Pic 1 – Technique from Shaking Crane. Unbeknownst to many, this style is quite big in aerial techniques like the one in pic.

Pic 2 – The late Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai. Robert, you should be familiar with this great Master….:slight_smile:

Regards.

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Hi Ten,

Sample page from the materials I use to research Hungga’s Nam Siu Lim beginning.

Regards.

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Folks,

A page from the classical Shaolin text “Louhan Gung” that I am using to study as probable source of SanChins.

Robert, correct me if I am wrong, Mantis folks do this set right?

Here’s an interesting thing; my Whooping Crane teachers quote “Luohan Gung” as reference when explaining our jin play.

In the Whooping Crane that I do, we do a “Luo Han” form which is directly linked to “LuoHan Gung”.

So if you do “LuoHan Gung” and I do LuoHan Gung inspired “Luohan quan”, we are really family hahaha…

Cheers. (Carlsberg btw).

Regards.

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When it rains, it pours…

Hi Eric and All,

Indeed, I am familiar with GM Chiu Chuk Kai (his my teacher). :wink: BTW this year marks his 15th year since he passed away.

Here’s a clip of me explaining the variation and the same technique on the top right corner of the scanned page. Thanks for bringing that up. :slight_smile:

Eagle Lands on a Branch and Hero Wu Song Strikes Tiger
Wu Song Da Hu

About the Luohan Gong, I happen to practice this set and also conducting research about the origin of this set. The manuscript is part of a text called “Luohan Xinggong Duanda” (Arhat exercises merits short strikes) which is dated around mid 1700s. Personally, though I may be biased, your supposition on the connection of your Luohan and this set is IMHO heading towards a possitive direction. There are many Luohan material out there but none has been so well documented like this set. It adds to the credibility of authenticity in my mind.

As you said, Wulin Yi Jia (martial arts forrest is one family). :slight_smile: Hopefully, more people will see that and we could achieve Tian Xia Da Tong (the world is of grand commonality).

On a side note, the kick that you saw in the my clip is what I believe to be an integral component in the San Zhan stepping method. IMHO It is supposed to be trained all the time but the application is seldom explained which is why some lines dropped it altogether. The essence of crane method is in the stepping (now that’s some truth). :wink: Sad thing really that people leaving things out but… I also saw this type of footwork component in Fanziquan BTW. So…

Warm regards

Robert

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Hi Eric,

I heard about Bart. Life is really short. Let’s pray that he is in peace now.

we dont wake up tomorrow, everything is gone.

take care

Peace

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Hi Robert,

Yes it’s the raining season that would soon be over.

Besides the CKF project that I mentioned, I am also diversifying my daytime business. This is expected to take up a very big chunk of my time. So with the little time to spare now, I will share as much as possible….

You are right again. The original SanZhans did include the “scooping” kick that you demoed.

It was dropped by later generations.

This scooping is archived in the classical text “The 15 postures of Fang Chi Niang” which I got in my collection. See link.

This I do know; Fuzhou centered Cranes shifted the footwork pattern to emphasizing the front leg.

The scooping is now done with the front leg in the manner that’s very similar to Hsing Yi’s “front leg advances, rear leg follows”.

This is very obvious in Whooping Crane. In fact I suspect that Whooping Crane borrowed heavily from Hsing Yi’s methodologies. Not mirror images but many of Hsing Yi’s elements could be found lacing Whooping Crane.

Take our basic 2 men form for example; from a distance you might think that you’re watching Hsing Yi’s “An Shen Pao”.

If I look at recorded histories, this thought might not be that improbable.

The founder of Whooping Crane, Ling Shi Xian, was recorded as both a White Crane and Internal (not specified) master.

His student Pan Yu Ba was a well-known Shaolin LuoHan boxer before studying Ling’s Whooping Crane.

So if you look at Whooping Crane today, you’ll see BaiHe, LuoHan and what I believe to be Hsing Yi.

Whooping Crane is, in all likehood, the first Crane style to introduce the 5 elements concept which is, as we all know, the keystone of Hsing Yi.

The “calling or singing” are essentially sounds and emotions triggers used to activate “nei jin”. This concept is, according to all my teachers, directly related the LuoHan Gung that
you do. In fact our “Koon Kor” or “fist poems” are almost identical to LuoHan Gung

These triggers are not unique to Whooping Crane. We also see them in Shaolin Luohan Quan and Tit Sin Kune.

And that’s the reason why Evert and I have been working so closely.

Regards.

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Yes Hendrik,

PEACE.

Regards.