Said that I will stay far aware from Rugby players, those are bad news.
My teacher has just started to teach tai chi to a few rugby teams. Hes ok with the grappling and pushing hands with 19 stone uber fit nutcases till they stamp on his feet with studds on LOL. It seems to happen once a week.
Not true. The issue is when grapplers claim to have cornered the market on BETTER ways to obtain or do said locks.
I mean, these guys spend 90% of their training time doing this stuff–why not acknowledge it? I won’t listen to a straight BJJer who tells me how to punch–why should I listen to a person who spends 90% of their time on their feet about what to do on the ground? Why should I listen to a person who spends the majority of their time striking about how to put somebody on the ground? ESPECIALLY if it looks nothing like the grappling arts–which ALL look similar because good principles transcend stylistic boundaries.
No thanks.
There are certain things that each arts do well. We can learn from that, or we can engage in belief preservation and walk away no better off than before. I mean, heck, I don’t lecture people on how to punch!
As far as ground work being in the curriculum of some CMA schools, unless the person teaching it has had some experience in a grappling art, I wouldn’t put alot of stock in it. We grappled when I was in longfistbut after beginning bjj, I’m beginning to see how basic their grappling was, and even those basics were mediocre.
Originally posted by MasterKiller
I don’t think anyone has a problem with acknowledging that grappling arts have more expertise in grappling than striking arts; the issue is only debated when grapplers claim to have cornered the market on using and/or inventing ground and submission techniques.
to an extent, they can say that. in the past several years, the ground game has evolved so much. There are techniques and transitions to them now that were unheard of until now. It was all part of the evolution that came from competition. Of course, they didn’t invent the principle of locking the arm for an armbar, but what other art has made such a science off of that? that goes for other submissions as well. Bottom line is if you want to learn grappling, go to a grappler.
We grappled when I was in longfistbut after beginning bjj, I’m beginning to see how basic their grappling was, and even those basics were mediocre
Aren’t basics what you rely on, more often than not?
but what other art has made such a science off of that?
I’m not saying it’s any better or worse, but there are 100s of Chin Na techniques for standing and grappling arm bars.
Originally posted by SevenStar
As far as ground work being in the curriculum of some CMA schools, unless the person teaching it has had some experience in a grappling art, I wouldn’t put alot of stock in it. We grappled when I was in longfistbut after beginning bjj, I’m beginning to see how basic their grappling was, and even those basics were mediocre.
I think,the main idea is to have good basics … Not to become an expert in groundfighting but to have some skills in order to get out of a bad situation if needed.
No need to become the next Royce Gracie to be able to use simples but effectives positions and escapes. and a choke or two!..
“I’m not saying it’s any better or worse, but there are 100s of Chin Na techniques for standing and grappling arm bars.”
Which is, I think, part of the problem. BJJ and judo have basically two arm locks - straight (juji gatame) and bent (ude garami, Americana/Kimura). Yes, there are other techniques in both systems, but they tend to be ignored in favor of the Big Two, to the point that you rarely if ever see them in competition. Even omo plata is just another way of getting a bent arm lock.
The advantage to this system is you spend less time learning additional (and often arcane and nigh-useless) techniques, and more time improving your execution of these basics. Rather than using a different move for each position, you use a different entry or set up for the same move.
“Technique collection” is a phase most martial artists go through, and I think grapplers are more susceptible to it than most. “Look at the new throw/lock/pin/pass I learned today!” Eventually it sinks in that you don’t need more moves - you just need to be good at them. Randori-based training, focused on a handful of high-percentage techniques with a wide range of applications, seems to be more effective than 100s of moves.
Lee Casebolt
LeeCasebolt
This is true for any martial art. Not only grappling.
Originally posted by MasterKiller
Aren’t basics what you rely on, more often than not?
They are. But, as I mentioned, even those were mediocre. When I started bjj, I noticed and felt the details that were missing - those small details make all the difference. And once you progress beyond basics, you see a world of things you can do that you had no clue of before.
I’m not saying it’s any better or worse, but there are 100s of Chin Na techniques for standing and grappling arm bars.
How many people have all of those mastered though? It’s easy to master a straight arm bar. the trick is learning different ways to set it up. That kinda goes back to sport arts being more conentrated than non-sport arts.
Originally posted by old jong
[B]
I think,the main idea is to have good basics … Not to become an expert in groundfighting but to have some skills in order to get out of a bad situation if needed.
No need to become the next Royce Gracie to be able to use simples but effectives positions and escapes. and a choke or two!..
[/B]
I agree with that. But where are you getting those basics?
So long as the basics are good..
I think that is the point.
right - but the point behind that is how do you know they’re good if you’re training in a style that doesn’t specialize in what you are learning the basics of? If I go to bjj and they teach us longfist basics - how much stock should I put in them? How do I know I am learning solid longfist basics? If I want longfist basics, I’ll train with a longfist guy. for grappling basics, I want to train with a grappler.
Granted, but what if your long fist did have good grappling basics (I know this is a long shot, but whatever).
If it does that’s fine. There are schools out there - RTB’s WT school, for example. His sisok has had some training in catch and in some other grappling style - It’s not unlikely that they have good basics.
My whole thing is to always question. I’m not gonna take anyone’s word on it that what they are teaching me is good if it’s not something they do.
My whole thing is to always question. I’m not gonna take anyone’s word on it that what they are teaching me is good if it’s not something they do.
I’d never debate against that for the most part…
I’m just saying, sometimes, after the basics, many things can come of the practitioner if they try to…For example, the Yang taiji single whip can be applied as an arm bar, etc.
Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]
I agree with that. But where are you getting those basics? [/B]
Go to the sources available!..I train with a Judoka who was already a black belt when Royce was still in diapers!.. This is how (or where) I get it.
My instructor is a real ne-waza maniac and I concentrate only on that aspect of Judo with him. I absolutely don’t care about belts for myself.All I want is the know how.
Which is exaclty the way it should be done!
Originally posted by LEGEND
Diego…we all think ROYCE was smoking crack when he released that BOOK! That book is HORRIBLE…and yes…it’s like 1 step 2 step kata drills. I suggest getting the MASTERING JUJITSU by Royce’s cousin…RENZO GRACIE…by far…much better than the crap Royce published.
Okay then…if you want to be harsh about it I will 
Question for yall…what did BJJ add to the ground game that old school JJ and wrestling arts didn’t have…did BJJ invent new tech’s etc?
peace
to add to my first question based on what 7* said about the game evolved as of recent…why through all of man’s years at war did he not have the ground evolution upto par to where it is today?..did our ancestors find that to much detail in the ground game is unneccassary orwhat?..like in war you’re best off trying to stay on your feet then worrying about getting back on them? what’s the deal yall grapple-scholar/fighters?.
I have heard in some chinese kungfu circles they thought it was disgracefull to fight on the ground like you a dog or whatever, anyone heard this? fill me in:)
I absolutely don’t care about belts for myself.All I want is the know how.
Got spanked during belt testing yet again OJ?
