Hardcore bone breaks in MMA matches

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
1

Injuries are part of fighting, and certain practitioners are more likely to hurt themselves in certain ways than others, depending on hte manner of the strike, and how the power is generated.

I’ve seen four or five separate videos "(tracked 3 down) of legs breaking in half during round kicks to an opponent’s leg.

It’s really, really, gross, so only look if you wish to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDR4i_4DeC8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxgC6S9oUKE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W5RI3peGLY
(2 mins. in)

I am curious to know whether any of you have seen this firsthand, whether this is somewhate common, and whether it points out a serious flaw in using the shin for kicks that might be a little too hard for practicality. I’m not really trolling, I swear. But in kung-fu, I don’t ever recall hearing anyone discuss a shin kick. Sometimes people do them in sparring, but I’ve never heard them discussed, by a teacher, as a good kicking surface.

Kicking with the foot: obviously, breaks happen. But I wouldn’t call them crippling breaks, for the most part. It depends on where the break occurs. If you were fighting, you still have a chance of surviving the encounter, or hobbling away, etc. But here…holy crap, that has to hurt…I feel bad for those guys, and as grossed out as their opponents were.

For the sake of discussion: Here we have 3 videos of practitioners making clean, crippling breaks to the shin, where the bone is completely severed, and hte foot is just dangling inside a kind of flesh-sock. We can assume that if something’s been caught on national TV at least three times in a ring fight, it has to happen much more on a wider circuit, in training dojos, amateur fights, sparring sessions.

I’ve also seen that leg kick break someone else’s leg.

Is it a flaw in the kick, the way it was used (where on the shin to make contact), or in the practitioner (not enough conditioning of bone density to take that kind of contact)?

Discuss, if this is in any way interesting.

2

Yes, I saw a break like in vid number 2 during practice, round kick came in and caught a bone shield as in the vid.

Personally I don’t work the round kick to any great degree anymore, its powerfull as hell and nasty by those skilled in its use, but for me I feel from a straight street self defense agenda it leaves me more open, than the low line straight kicks I use.

I don’t see those breaks as being a flaw, first one came in low and missed the thigh and went shin to knee it seems, second one was a classic defense, third I can’t really say, sometimes that’s just how the percentages fall.

3

The break usually happens when the kicker kicks in an “upward” angle making contact with the FLAT of HIS shin bone on the HARD EDGE of the blockers shin bone.
That is why good MT teachers teach to kick IN or Down, but NEVER UP.

4

Good point, both the first kicks were coming up in the clips, at least its how they appeared, but again in a stress based situation, as combative sports just showcased, sometimes the perfect principle of technique goes out the window.

5

[QUOTE=Black Jack II;769358]Good point, both the first kicks were coming up in the clips, at least its how they appeared, but again in a stress based situation, as combative sports just showcased, sometimes the perfect principle of technique goes out the window.[/QUOTE]

All to true, hence the RIGHT way has to be drilled and drilled and drilled and on harder bags and while I understand the need for shin guards when sparring, the bad habits they create have to be taken into account.

6

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;769356]The break usually happens when the kicker kicks in an “upward” angle making contact with the FLAT of HIS shin bone on the HARD EDGE of the blockers shin bone.
That is why good MT teachers teach to kick IN or Down, but NEVER UP.[/QUOTE]

Up kicks are taught as “cutting kicks,” and down kicks are taught as “chopping kicks.” Two different methods.

7

As far as I can tell my style does not even have the roundhouse kick. I’ve never seen it in any of the forms (And I have a lot of them documented from all over China, in addition to the few I actually do).

Kicks are front snap, normal ones + the pushing version. Stop Kick/kneebreak also known as the “no Shadow” Kick, We also have the inside, and outside crescent kick and sevral vesions of a side kick as well as the back kick and some kicks that are really trips & sweeps, but look like kicks in the forms.

8

I was taught to kick upward, inward and downward. upward generally targets the ribs. downward, the head and lowerbody. Inward can be used for them all. The suitcase kick is also done inward.

9

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;769386]Up kicks are taught as “cutting kicks,” and down kicks are taught as “chopping kicks.” Two different methods.[/QUOTE]

a cut kick in muay thai is a roundhouse to the supporting leg of an opponent who is kicking at you. You are kicking out their supporting leg, hopefully knocking them down.

10

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;769356]The break usually happens when the kicker kicks in an “upward” angle making contact with the FLAT of HIS shin bone on the HARD EDGE of the blockers shin bone.
That is why good MT teachers teach to kick IN or Down, but NEVER UP.[/QUOTE]
Same thing I’ve heard my Sifu saw dozens of times, for every type of kick. “Don’t rise up on the tip toe or you fall on you butt. Don’t float the kick or you’ll connect where you shouldn’t. Either way, you’re dead in a real fight.”

My Sifu’s such an optomist.:wink:

11

[QUOTE=SevenStar;769402]a cut kick in muay thai is a roundhouse to the supporting leg of an opponent who is kicking at you. You are kicking out their supporting leg, hopefully knocking them down.[/QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlkUlA96g2Y

12

We also define a cut kick as a kick to the support leg, not any upward kick.

Its very rare for someone to break their leg using a shin kick. In almost every case, the kicker is doing one or more things wrong, and in other cases has had other injuries to the leg or some sort of medical problem with their bones.

3 videos out of how many? Very rare.

Drill correctly and kick correctly, no problems.

:eek:

13

[QUOTE=SevenStar;769396]The suitcase kick is also done inward.[/QUOTE]The suitcase kick…? Are you taking the ****? WTF is that? :smiley:

[QUOTE=SevenStar;769402]a cut kick in muay thai is a roundhouse to the supporting leg of an opponent who is kicking at you. You are kicking out their supporting leg, hopefully knocking them down.[/QUOTE]So does that go up, or does it depend?

[QUOTE=yenhoi;769454]…in other cases has had other injuries to the leg or some sort of medical problem with their bones.[/QUOTE]Good point. I haven’t checked (I’m at work and can’t watch vids) whether it’s one of these, but it probably is: there’s one of these vids floating around (maybe the oldest on the net) where the kicking guy who’s leg broke had stress fractures in his shin anyway and the quacks said he had a calcium deficiency syndrome.

14

The videos show low round kicks being blocked by shins, not cut kicks, not body kicks.

I have never heard any decent MT coach tell you to kick “upward” on a low round to the thigh, I did how ever get slapped in the head by Chai when I did that at a seminar and hear " you wanna break leg boy?".

15

[QUOTE=Mr Punch;769472]The suitcase kick…? Are you taking the ****? WTF is that? :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

I’ve heard a hook kick called a suitcase kick. Like another name for an axe kick is the lotus kick. Just a name thing…:slight_smile:

16

[QUOTE=Becca;769552]I’ve heard a hook kick called a suitcase kick. Like another name for an axe kick is the lotus kick. Just a name thing…:)[/QUOTE]

those are both new to me. I’ve never heard a hook called that. Where I took cma, the lotus kick was a type of jumping axe. the spinning hook in muay thai is “crocodile whips its tail”. I can’t recall how to say it in thai…

17

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;769543]The videos show low round kicks being blocked by shins, not cut kicks, not body kicks.

I have never heard any decent MT coach tell you to kick “upward” on a low round to the thigh, I did how ever get slapped in the head by Chai when I did that at a seminar and hear " you wanna break leg boy?".[/QUOTE]

nor have I.

18

[QUOTE=Mr Punch;769472]The suitcase kick…? Are you taking the ****? WTF is that? :D[/quote]

it’s a roundhouse variation. it’s done with more bend in the leg and is used on a frontal surface like the stomach, or more commonly, the front of the quads. I am guessing the name came from the use of suitcase pads to train the kick, however, you can use a suitcase pad on the side of the leg as well…

So does that go up, or does it depend?

always inward.

19

[QUOTE=SevenStar;769617]those are both new to me. I’ve never heard a hook called that. Where I took cma, the lotus kick was a type of jumping axe. the spinning hook in muay thai is “crocodile whips its tail”. I can’t recall how to say it in thai…[/QUOTE]
Yep, and combined with a wheel kick, you get a croc roll. I busted my nose driving my face into the ground the first time I got up the nerve to complete it. there is no doing at half speed; its an all or nothing move. :smiley:

My style calls any axe kick a lotus kick.

20

[QUOTE=SevenStar;769629]it’s a roundhouse variation. it’s done with more bend in the leg and is used on a frontal surface like the stomach, …[/QUOTE]
Interesting… I’ve always heard this one called a side thrust kick. Are you using the ball of the foot or the outside edge to make contact?