Have anyone of you heard of the Haitian MA Ladja? I have heard that it should be like capoeira without acrobatics and with more hand striking and wrestling.
Supposely it shares some roots to the african art N´golo with capoeira, hence the resemblence.
Anyone of you know it?
Never heard of it
And that’s TOO strange, since I live in the same island. However, is a totally different country and language. I’ll have to check it out, anyway.
“To be great is to be misunderstood”- Emerson
I just spoke to a guy who said that its basically the same art as danmye in matinique.
He also said that the art i heavely influenced by the senegalese fighting styles, hance the wrestling elements.
I once saw some danmye tapes from senegal and even though it was difficult to see the details it looked a lot like capoeira.
It a very interresting fact to add to the discussion of wheter capoeira originated in brasil or africa.
Funny thing was that there was a traditional Taekwondo master present watching the tape and he said that the art looked a lot like taekyon.
Tvebak,
Have you ever seen or heard about Jailhouse Rock? It is linked to the African martial arts, but developed along its own lines in the American penal system.
I don’t get mad.
I get stabby.
Stranger…
I have heard about it, i think there is one master in a danish jail…as soon as i find out where im going to make a failed attempt at robbing a 7-11 to get in and train with him.
lol 
Lethal Weapon I has some of it in the fight choreography.
There is a lot of info on stickgrappler’s page about Jailhouse Rock, its origins, and its similarities to African MA.
I don’t get mad.
I get stabby.
Danmye/Ladja
Danmye, like Capoeira, derives from African combatives. See T.J. Desch Obi’s work on these and the African-American variant known knockin’ ‘n Kickin’. There was was an African derived art done here as well called “Jack,” based on animal movements as are the other African arts. I suspect the the African-American phrase "I’m gonna “jack” you up derives from this artform.
African-Americans also developed a mixture of African arts and Western Boxing called “Cutting.” It mixed African offensive and defensive skills with Western punches. It is also apparent that African Sanguar (weapons, blows from limbs evasion) skills are the cornerstone of what we know of today as Western Boxing, which, to me, is more African than Western. Early Western boxing does not use the dipping and swaying movements which part of the core of defensive skills used by the African Imbare, Kimbare, for example, in evading spear and “throwing knives” weaponry and bladed/stick cuts and strikes. This is an African technique which augmented blocking skills, etc.
Also, Breakdancing does not derive from Capoeira but from a warrior physical culture in Africa of which the Ongolo (the ancestor of current Capoeira) is but a part.
everything in africa os done top rythm, but that doesnt mean that break dancing comes from africa. I dont see the relation really, and I see africans everyday, all day. itss part of my culture
Breakdancing’s African Origins
It is most amazing that the origins of the Polka, Savate, or any other non-African cultural practice is rarely challenged. However, anything African is automatically questioned because the unspoken idea, subconsciously or not, is that Africans are not “intelligent enough” to have invented it, thus, it must have been developed by non-Africans or via cultural diffusion from non-African sources.
What is called “breakdancing” here is part of ritual warriors celebratory dances as seen among the Peuhl of Guinea, with their men’s acrobatic dances (see Kariamu Welsh-Asante’s African dance for a brief description of Peuhl “Bridges,” back and shoulder spins-they also do the arm into elbow/hand-base spin) and non-chalant freezes which makes up the play aspects of African combative rituals; among the Akamba of Kenya, et al. Elements of the Ongolo tradition, for example, are even found among the Kung! of S.A. as demonstrated in their “Ostrich” Ongolo type combat game (for which see the Smithsonian African series archival video footage).
Breakdancing, as WE HAVE PRESENTLY COME TO KNOW IT, has all the characteristics of an African artform, including the fact that it comes out of the African-American community in the States. Likewise, there is footage of early African-American dance which shows the same type of uprocking, spinning repetoire now associated with this genre of African derived dance.
Greetings,
danmyete, thank you for the history lessons. Keep it coming!
I have heard of Haitian martial arts at two points in my life:
1- In 1978 a classmate describes the fighting art of Haiti without mentioning the name. It focused on punching, kicking, elbowing, stomping, biting and gouging. Very in close and thorough.
2- In 2004, one of my clients from the Dominican Republic shared that the moves of capoeria (namely, the acrobatics, the kicks, and the musical component) are also practiced by the Haitians and those who live near the Dominican Republic/Haiti area. .
This has strengthened my belief that Savate may have originally been a West African martial art to begin with since it was often associated with the French “underclass.” Haitians pretty much constituted that underclass.
I forgot to add one more thing:
Catherine Dunham, dance choreographer and High Priestess, has preserved aspects of the Haitian fighting methods in a dance choreography. Interestingly, Capoeria is taught at her school; some may call that a spiritual linkage.
mickey
The origins of the polka are easily traceable: it has a documented history.
The origins of Savate are frequently challenged as are the origins of most CMA and the origins of many many white western traditions, not only fighting/dancing, usually those with a beginning steeped in oral history.
The origins of breakdancing follow a rich cultural oral tradition, therefore there is no written history, making it harder to trace. Don’t get me wrong mate, I think you’re right in the inherent racism of a lot of people who deny African history, but it is made easier for them to do so by the fact that most African traditions are oral.
Having said that, I’ve never seen Eddie make a racist comment on the baord, so shouldn’t we give him the benefit of the doubt.
As for myself, I don’t see any reason to attribute Western boxing’s origins to African fighting arts:
-
There is some limited evidence that the ducking and weaving came from the changes to the rules after Queensbury came in, for various reasons I won’t go into now.
-
There haven’t been any major African boxing champions as far as I can remember (if you can think of any please let me know). Of course a lot of boxing champs have been black and their origins were in Africa, but there’s no evidence that for example Ali got any exposure to African arts before his boxing style was already well developed.
-
Western pugilism has a well-documented history through newspaper articles and commentator’s social commentaries etc going back some 300 years. The developments in ducking and weaving have come much more recently, but can be traced as a progression in rules as in (1) above.
I’m not saying there’s definitelt no influence but so far, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that it’s definitely the case that African arts gave us boxing.
And no, I’m not dissing African nations or history and I don’t think intelligence comes into it one way or the other (but BTW, do you think intelligence would be a major factor in the foundation of a) a dance style or b) a fighting style?), I just don’t agree.
BTW, welcome to the board.
Seems you have some good opinions and knowledge of history, hope you stick around and don’t find too much racism where there is none: god knows there’s enough around in other places for you to find!
Mat
Thanks for the reply and welcome.
Here’s my reply:
I have a major distrust of the Western approach to corroborating subjects through so-called textual sources. This approach begs a certain degree of trust that, frankly, given the West’s rather twisted approach to recording Western and non-Western “history” and culture, I cannot give unreservedly.
What is called “Breakdancing” here has a form of performance play which is identical to that of the Peuhl ritual warrior’s acrobatic dancing. Breakdancing does not derive from Capoeira, which IS also African derived, nor from Chinese Ti-Tang ground fighting skills. It is IDENTICAL in structure to men’s ritual warriors performative dances of this type. Examples can be found in the Ivory Coast, Senegambia, Kenya, et al.
The vast majority of people “denying” African history has more to do with white supremist agendas/interests, etc., then to any legitimate reason to do so. It is as though expressing the idea that Africans have their own histories, cultures and traditions, which are worthy of respect, is some how an affront to white histories, cultures and traditions.
What do you mean by “most African traditions are oral?” The French deliberately destroyed the African script, from older African writing traditions, by Bamum script of the Cameroon. The Bassa script with discouraged by “Colonial” usurpers of Sierra Leon. The Nsibidi script of Nigeria/Cameroon is the origins of the African derived Abakua script in Cuba. It is a gross distortion by Western propaganda to paint such erroneous pictures of traditional African societies.
“Eddie” referenced the idea of whether or not Capoeira was African or not. What is interesting is that no one ever assumes the opposite until "proven otherwise. That was created by persons of African descent is one bit of evidence that should be looked at before assumptions to the contrary are ever mentioned. He also mentioned a Tae Kwon Do instructor who noted Ladja’s supposed “similarity” to Tae Kyon. Why mention this, since, clearly, beyond a superficial manner, the two are related at all? One is African, the other is Korean. Since there were no known Koreans sent to Martinique, nor Africans known to have been sent to Korea who may have such African derived amrtial skills, why enter into a discussion with such a premise? What is the motive?
If you are saying that the type of ducking and weaving used by contemporary boxers, made famous by AFRICAN-American boxer mohammed Ali, please point these out. I have read Terry Brown’s “English Martial Arts.” I have seen nothing in the text which supports the idea that, beyond rudimentary leaning back while barring a blow to the stomach, the intricate bobbing and weaving used by African-Amercian boxers derives from Marcus-of-Queensbury boxing. Africans in the U.S. had several African MAs, such as Knocking and Kicking and the high bread art Cutting, which fused Evasive footwork from the African derived Omkandeka palm striking sub art (the Ongolo/N’Golo/Nzanga/Sanga/Capoeira/Ladja/Danmye/Nsusa/Knockin’ ‘n Kickin’/Broma/Mani-Bombousa, African martial traditions) with English boxing.
Mohammed Ali/Mike Tyson/Joe Frazier/Ken Norton/Thomas Hearns/Sugar Ray Leonard, et al., was as African as Doc Fai Wong is (and Bruce Lee considered himself) Chinese. Top contenders for this designation would be Azumah Nelson as well. Black does not define an Ancestry, but only approximates African melanin content, since I have never seen a white, yellow nor black person in all actuality.
The Portuquese commented on the African evasive skills known in Ki-Kongo as Sanguar, as practiced by the kIMBARE (warrior specialists given additional martial training). This ability enabled them to twist and turn out harms way of projectile and cutting/thrusting weaponry. This was documented as early as 1570.
The French attempted to ban the Practice of Ladja/Danmye, as the Portuguese attempted with the Ongolo/Capoeira. See Dr. T.J. Desch Obi’s works on these and other aspects of indigenous, traditional African combatives.
danmyete,
Regarding Paragraph 5: Korea and Africa.
I have been looking at Korea for some time now. There is definitely a West African connection. They possess a two sided drum that is called “Chango,” that is the name of a powerful West African God. They also perform a dance with a ribbon whirling from the top of their head, Something that is done in West Africa as well. The drum I refer to is here:
http://www.africantreasures.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=DRUM0006
Strong correlations have been found between West African Gods and the Gods of Shinto. I say this because the Koreans and the Japanese are essentially the same people (it has been proven) despite the bile that they spew at each other.
Additonally, there was a time when it was fashionable to have African manserveants and Korean maidservants in China. During this time Africans in China were called “Kun Lun”
mickey
Mickey
The Haitian art you mention could be one of the following: Pinge, the unarmed form of Muti, Ga-Ga or Bu-Bu.
Mickey
The Haitian art you mention could be one of the following: Pinge, the unarmed form of Muti, Ga-Ga or Bu-Bu.
Mickey
I am aware of the Korean “two headed” drum, its “ribbon” dance and the fact that Tae Kyon has a from of “Ginga,” for lack of a more appropriate term in Korean.
I am aware of the early Chinese term for Africans as “Mo Kun Lun,” and that there was a Chinese Pirate, actually mentioned in an article from Kung Fu Magazine, who had as part of his crew/bodyguard 300 ex-former African “slaves” from Macau. Since they came from Macau, there is an Ongolo connection. It is clear that they probably would not have been part of the crew if they could not fight, and it is doubtful that what they would have used would have been Asian combatives. For those interested in going in this direction, more indepth research would be needed to corroborate such a supposition.
Incidently, Chango’s drum is the Bata. The Bata, however, has only one head.
Thanks for the discourse.
Mat
Thanks for the reply and welcome.
Here’s my reply:
I have a major distrust of the Western approach to corroborating subjects through so-called textual sources (as major sources of research material given the level of erroneous ideas birthed thru this methodology). This approach begs a certain degree of trust that, frankly, given the West’s rather twisted approach to recording Western and non-Western “history” and culture, I cannot give unreservedly.
What is called “Breakdancing” here has a form of performance play which is identical to that of the Peuhl ritual warrior’s acrobatic dancing. Breakdancing does not derive from Capoeira, which IS also African derived, nor from Chinese Ti-Tang ground fighting skills. It is IDENTICAL in structure to men’s ritual warriors performative dances of this type. Examples can be found in the Ivory Coast, Senegambia, Kenya, et al.
The vast majority of people “denying” African history has more to do with white supremist agendas/interests, etc., then to any legitimate reason to do so. It is as though expressing the idea that Africans have their own histories, cultures and traditions, which are worthy of respect, is some how an affront to white histories, cultures and traditions.
What do you mean by “most African traditions are oral?” The French deliberately destroyed the African script, from older African writing traditions, known as the Bamum script of the Cameroon. The Bassa script was discouraged by the “Colonial” usurpers of Sierra Leone. The Nsibidi script of Nigeria/Cameroon is the origins of the African derived Abakua script in Cuba. It is a gross distortion by Western propaganda to paint such an erroneous picture of traditional African societies.
“Eddie” referenced the idea of whether or not Capoeira was African. What is interesting is that no one ever assumes the opposite until “proven otherwise.” That it was created by persons of African descent is one bit of evidence that should be looked at before assumptions to the contrary are ever mentioned. He also mentioned a Tae Kwon Do instructor who noted Ladja’s supposed “similarity” to Tae Kyon. Why mention this, since, clearly, beyond a superficial manner, the two are not related at all? One is African, the other is Korean. Since there were no known Koreans sent to Martinique, nor Africans known to have been sent to Korea (who may have practiced such African derived martial skills), why enter into a discussion with such a premise? What is the motive?
If you are saying that the type of ducking and weaving used by contemporary boxers, made famous by AFRICAN-American boxer mohammed Ali, was a pre-African-American developement, please point these out. I have read Terry Brown’s “English Martial Arts.” I have seen nothing in the text which supports the idea that, beyond rudimentary leaning back while barring a blow to the stomach, the intricate bobbing and weaving used by African-Amercian boxers derives from Marcus-of-Queensbury boxing. Africans in the U.S. had several African MAs, such as Knocking and Kicking and the high-bred art called “Cutting,” which fused the evasive footwork from the African derived Omkandeka palm striking sub art of (read: Ongolo/N’Golo/Nzanga/Sanga/Capoeira/Ladja/Danmye/Nsusa/Knockin’ ‘n Kickin’/Broma/Mani-Bombousa) African martial traditions with English boxing.
Mohammed Ali/Mike Tyson/Joe Frazier/Ken Norton/Thomas Hearns/Sugar Ray Leonard, et al., was as African as Doc Fai Wong is (and Bruce Lee considered himself) Chinese. Top contenders for this designation would be Azumah Nelson as well. Black does not define an Ancestry, but only approximates African melanin content, since I have never seen a white, yellow nor black person in all actuality.
The Portuquese commented on the African evasive skills known in Ki-Kongo as Sanguar, as practiced by the KIMBARE (warrior specialists given additional martial training). This ability enabled them to twist and turn out of harms way of projectile and cutting/thrusting weaponry. This was documented as early as 1570. In fact, the female Nzingha (ruler of the Kongo nation during the time of its war with Portugal), for which the name has now become synomomous, was said to have been able to defeat no less than 25 warriors at any given time with Nzanga martial art, and to have still been able to do so in her seventies; she even apologies, in when of the accounts, to the Portuguese giving the account, for not being able to do so as quickly as in her youth (for brief accounts of this and Sanguar, see Thomas Thortans texts on the “African” slave trade.
The French attempted to ban the Practice of Ladja/Danmye, as the Portuguese attempted with the Ongolo/Capoeira. See Dr. T.J. Desch Obi’s works on these and other aspects of indigenous, traditional African combatives.
Greetings,
The Katherine Dunham dance choreography is called “L’ag Ya,” first performed in 1938. Ag Ya being the fighting method practiced in Martinique:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/freetodance/biographies/dunham.html
danmyete,
I really enjoy what you have shared so far. Please be careful when you are looking to distinguish African from Asian combatives. The African martial arts perspective is that of a continuum from the most ancient times, radiating outward in waves.
mickey
Origins Of Savate
Greetings All,
I apologize if these posts are more heated than I may have liked. I also apologize for any unedited grammatical errors incurred thusfar.
As to the question of Savate, this an interesting one. Some enthusiasts would like to see Savate as the origins of everything under the sun (Prof. Buitron), especially African MAs. Here is my perception based on my research:
-
The African arts have circular, acrobatic (Ongolo) and toe point (Mrenge/Morenge) kicking methods.
-
Palm systems include Omkandeka and Kambangula.
-
Fist arts include the African core of RoinPoing-Round Fist-from Ladja/Danmye.
-
A core practice is the placing the hands on the ground from which to launch powerful kicking techniques; to imitate the Ongolo or Ostrich, as in the Kung’s! “Ostrich” Game, or in reference to communicating with the Ancestors via the Ancestral Realm which, in certain key (Yoruba) African cultures, is upside down to our own.
-
Africans used as “fighting ****s” or enforcers, with the African derived fighting skills as the martial technique used, on plantations.
-
Whites observing these bouts on plantations and during the post abolitionary period.
-
Chausson showing similarities to the African/African derived arts ( Nsusa/Ladja-Danmye/Mani-Bombousa/Capoeira/Yuna Onse/Knockin ‘n Kickin’/Pushin’ ‘n Dancin’/Mrenge/Morenge/Morinque/KaLadja, et al).
The bogus argument that the acrobatic nature of Chausson exists due to its practioners fighting aboard pitching boats when the lithograghs show spectators watching this “game” from rather comfortible, free-standing postions. A pitching ship does not, BTW, allow for any activity save specifically naval ones!
To Be Cont’d…