Front kick (revisited) and Christopher Columbus

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Do you know how in some circles (high school students, not PHDs) you have to concede that yes, Christopher Columbus discovered America. This knowing full well – through study of history – that Leaf Erickson landed and settled Newfoundland (already North America) 1,000 years earlier.

Well, in the same way – history – I know China’s government ordered the collection of all weapons. Their reasoning? To build a super large statue (of Buddha I believe). Now, was this to improve the standards of martial arts? Remove all the weapons?

Now the powers that be are smart. They know if you say, “No more martial arts” it will only drive the people to pursue them more (the forbidden fruit is sweetest). So instead they worked to change them, standardize them into some less martial.

Every three years the regional champions would gather for a sort of who’s who or best of the best in the capital. Little by little form was favored; how high can you kick? How low can you twist? Better to pull your punch back ala reverse punch. Wax on, wax off blocking. This was during the Tung Dynasty.

Now for conspiracy theorists: Tong So Do developed here. Hung Gar, a southern style, was exported over sees. The word “Karate” and “Tung” are very similar. Some say it was changed to “empty hand” to give it a Japanese flavor and remove Chinese influence.

Anyway, the idea of taking away the weapons and pushing mediocre martial arts on the masses backfired. Look at the history of China’s borders: Ever shrinking and expanding (under Hun, Mongolian and Manchurian invasion).

However, royalty, the wealthy, who did they turn to for protection and to move valuables long distance: Taiji, Hsing-I and Ba Gua. Funny, none of these styles use the round-house kick as seen today. Yet here in America, it’s the other styles that have had so much influence and what everyone thinks of when thinking of “Kung Fu.” These are also the poor southerners who left China at first chance to build railroads.

So, when it comes to traditional, is it Columbus or Erickson? Depends with whom you’re speaking.

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The sound of an axe grinding

:smiley:

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To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi: “Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.”

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0.9

<g>

:frowning:

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this is SO FLAWED I don’t know even where to begin…

I know, first off

CITE your REFERENCES for the collection of weapons and this mythical national competition, being as the FIRST government sponsored national competition was done by Chiang Kai-Shek in 1928…

sorry, history professor in me

I’ll be back for more

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Not looking to start a huge controversy over this, just putting out food for though.

Do a google search or hit the book store, you’ll find references to this collection of arms. As for the tournaments, the gathering of martial artist (a huge part of Chinese culture) has always been. The founder of Ba Gua was discovered this way, before Shek and the new China. It probbaly won’t be mentioned in government records because it was a different governement.

I’ve read about this in numerous different books. Just like I can’t pull the books about Leaf Erickson out of thin air right now at work, I can’t do the same for this. Believe me or not, makes no difference to me. Like I said, just wanted to put this out.

One of my sources however is my teacher, who was born and raised in China and has THREE PHDs from a top University there. In China he was an auronotical engineer, and history is one of his specialties … not just Chinese.

Of course this is all history, the past. It’s good to know, get an understanding say of why Southern Boxers technique and aproach varies from “internal” styles from the northern capital. But what’s really important is the here and now. No matter where we or out styles have come from, I think martial arts is experiencing a revolution. A lot of us are waking up and, through combined efforts, we’ll actually advance the arts further then they ever have been. MMA and UFC events, events like the one you run, all help to improve things. For that you have my respect and gratitude.

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Do a google search or hit the book store, you’ll find references

I’ve read about this in numerous different books.

You sound like the french.

Give it up.

Combined score: 0.5

:confused: :confused: :confused:

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is it Columbus or Erickson?
the indians… i mean natives… :confused:

french joke are sooo 2003… get with the times…

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yeah, I’d have to say North America was “discovered” by nomadic tribes across the bearing straight long before Erickson.

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Yes! Even better! And you’re right. There were people in North America when Erickson got here (though maybe not in Newfoundland … burr).

Sorry, I don’t even get the French joke.

On another note, they say experience is the best teacher: I’ve never played with a good kung fu guy that has opened with ANY round house kick, let alone a high one.

Is it not said that a kick is a step that hits you, a kick that misses is a step. How does a head-high roundhouse fit into this?

Of course practice high and use low. Someone posted a picture of that woman Ba Gua teacher doing a high kick in response to me challenge of: find me a pic of a master doing a high roundhouse.

If you look close, that is no roundhouse, and actually a high-level kick. My teachers daughter can do that kick – kick her own nose. In that is the point. Being able to kick that hight inside the distance of your hands. Kick? Yes! But only when supported by your hands. Otherwise you’re dropping troops on the beach ala Saving Private Ryan. That is my real point.

I find most guys get thrown after they’re kick has been captured.

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There were people in Newfoundland, when Leif Ericson got there, if Leif Ericson is to be believed.

When Leif Garrett arrived, however, he cleared the place out.

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Let’s see, a “history” from your teacher who CLAIMS to have 3 Phd’s but is a self described ENGINERR

vs.

My master’s degree in Chinese history from George Washington University’s Elliott School of International Affairs.

Seriously, you are way too guilable, whatever someone tells you you apparently just believe.

Again, I have an MA in Chinese history and taught the subject at NYU. There was no mass seizure of weapons. Maybe your “expert historian” is confusing the Okinawan seizure that happened after the Japanese acquired it.

Nor were there any “national tournaments”, want a reference? The EMPERIAL EDICTS as published by the Beijing Social Sciences publishing house which has at least THREE separate edicts FORBIDDING public contests. Or read Esherwich’s account on the Boxer Rebellion where he discusses the current social conditions before the rebellion

Do a search you will find it :smiley:

I have to say, I find your desperate attempt to paint the internal arts, ie YOUR arts as the only “legit” arts pretty stupid, childish and beneath someone attempting to be a teacher.

Seven Star Mantis is a very legit traditional Northern martial arts and it’s “baai myuhn teui” is a round kick. Sorry you lose the argumnet

So is Pek Gwa, another well respected and legit Northern martial art with round kicks, that’s strike #2

Your comments about Tang Soo Do (refer to CORRECT spelling) is so funny I would think you are 13 years old if I didn’t know better.

Tang Soo Do was first established as the Moo Duk Kwan by Mr Hwang Kee in Seoul, Korea in 1945. Hwang Kee combined elements of existing Korean martial arts (one being Tae Kyon, and boy are we going to have fun with Tae Kyon in a minute) with JAPANESE martial art, most notably SHOTOKAN

There is indisputable histrical evidence that the Japanese introduced Shotokan to the Korean peninsula during their occupation. Shotokan’s basic forms/kata are the Heian/Pinan?Pyong Ahn (Korean).

If you are looking for any “real” martial art in these sets, remember that they were created in Okinawa for the express purpose of teaching SCHOOL CHILDREN. Again, your “history” is very flawed while mine is very exact.

Heian are designed to be very simple and not have much in them. They are designed for kids, or for dumb Japanese :smiley: Funakoshi was Okinawan after all and didn’t think much of his Japanese students…

Thus, arguing about the content of Heian forms is POINTLESS

You want to argue about Chinese influence on Okinawan and ultimately Japanese and Korean martial arts you have to talk about Ko-No-Kata like Saifa, Seuichin, Naianchi, etc

But then of course your argument about only front kicks being there would be MOOT, those sets have all sorts of kicks

Now let’s talk about round kick in KOREAN martial arts, as everyone know, it is there a LOT. It comes from Tae Kyon, an ancient Korean kicking art which thankfully survived in Northern Korea and small villages. The current Korean Tae Kyon Association in Korea now has about 3 and 1/2 million students.

According to the Korean Tae Kyon Association, based upon the historical documents it has, the round kick comes from

drum roll please

anticipating?

CHINA…

So what were you trying to say again? I forget with all the references and corrections I had to make

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http://www.valentinkarate.com/history.htm

Just read the first graph of that. I’m at work and don’t have time to check all your claims. This was found from doing a simple “Tang Soo Doo, History” check on yahoo. Notice what it says about Tang Dynasy.

As a history prof. you should know there is always more than one view on any given aspect of history. The Japanese, Chinese and American view on the Japanese occupation of China couldn’t be more different. As far as Japan is concerned, they helped plant roses there. What beheadings.

Very often history is perpetrated by:

Teacher: “What year did Columbus discover America.”

Student: “Columbus discovered America in 1452.”

Student goes on to answer a little more than half of all the questions asked him correctly (60%) and becomes a teacher and asks his students," What year did Columbus discover America."

When is Erickson mentioned?

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1492

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Oh My God, I Think I Pooped Myself.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I wish we could post picks so I could more thoroughly illustrate the :eek: face

[quote]Originally Posted by EvolutionFist
The word “Karate” and “Tung” are very similar. Some say it was changed to “empty hand” to give it a Japanese flavor and remove Chinese influence.

This is the only thing I’m gonna tackle, as lkfmdc round-kicked the correct on the tip of the nose, which resulted in the correct’s brain exploding in almost the same fashion as mine did.

Firstly (and pretty much everything-ly), that history, as presented by EFist, so completely gang-rapes ALL accounts of history, that I had to wash out my eyes. Now, on to the rant!

“Some say it [the character Tang, which has an alternate pronunciation of Kara] was changed to empty hand to give it a Japanese flavor and to remove Chinese influence.”

Kinda, but not quite. Funakoshi wanted to be liked. His behavior while in Japan, and later with the Americans, was used to put himself in a good position. This included the changing of things to Japanese. Example, “Tang” (a Chinese dynasty) to “Kara” (empty). However, this spelling was used before Funakoshi’s karate texts made it so popular.

Sweet goodness. I don’t have any clue about your instructor’s fighting/teaching ability or your own, but the history, well . . . Sweet goodness.

I just refer back to Ross’s correct-kicking post.

I need to go wash myself again.

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Originally posted by EvolutionFist
[B]http://www.valentinkarate.com/history.htm

[/B]

I really can’t believe you are this obtuse :confused:

Any idiot can, and frequently DOES, put stuff up on the internet

I guess I have to smack down the incorrect again

Among the many great lucks I’ve had in life, I studied Moo Duk Kwan under the late Pong Ki Kim in the 1980’s. Master Kim was a DIRECT STUDENT of Hwang Kee and RAN the Moo Duk Kwan’s southern district (like 19 schools) for him for like 10 years.

I can safetly say that what I wrote about Moo Duk Kwan is correct and the web page simply represents the worst in martial arts, over mystified boooollllll shhheeeeeettt that sadly people like you read uncritically and simply accept
:rolleyes:

So, <b>ONCE AGAIN</b> I have to point out how silly what you post is…

I notice you stay way clear of the Seven Star Manits and Pek Gwa information…

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This board has to have the dumbest posters I have ever seen.

Everybody knows that Helio Gracie discovered America in 1936.

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actually, helio actually invented north america after he read about it in a judo book

(probably too obscure for KFO types to get)

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I always thought that Helio taught his style to kimura who then taught it to Kano’s gardener who then…Up to Ralek!..:wink:

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BTW
The Koreans invented martial arts 25,984,372 years ago.