[QUOTE=uki;973399]i beg to differ… mankind has a primal nature and i firmly believe if it is put into use, the growling will occur naturally… many times i stub a toe, or bang a shin, smoosh a pinky and growl like an animal.[/QUOTE]
Hey, dude, whatever turns you on man.
You’re probably one of those “yelling while doing a surprise attack” people, not many of you left you know, wonder why…
you know ray those styles really dont mimic the anaimals per say
tiger stylist dont run around on all fours going RAWWWWWWR! at people lol
[QUOTE=Frost;973310][ep because what would grapplers and MMA guys know about grappling and ground fighting 
[/quote]
No,not really, it was more of a case of what would grapplers and MMA guys, with questionable understanding of kung fu know about the TCMA approach to the ground scenario.
Which you don’t!
“Advice” is one thing, but blind and clueless criticism is another!!!
Read Ray Pina’s take on this video and you will see that he is giving a balanced and eloquent view. I don’t agree with everything that he says but his position is to be respected as he did not come out ridiculing things blindly.
HW108
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;973332]your going to say that TCMA has a “gold mine” of ground tech. and only work on it maybe a tad?[/quote]
TCMA addresses the ground scenario more than you think.
As usual, you are missing the bigger picture. It is not about ground fighting or stand up fighting. It is about fighting. Most if not all TCMAs provide the answers you are looking for, but perhaps not in ways that you expect. All you need is to study one major style holistically and profoundly. Of course, in the Mcdojo era this is easier said than done. So if all else fails, there is nothing wrong with looking for your answers in a BJJ or Judo dojo.
From where I am sitting , it looks like you are pulling out your own teeth. LOL!
HW108
PS. Read Ray Pina’s post on this subject so that you get an idea how to approach this disucssion from an intelligent MMA perspective,
[QUOTE=goju;973440]you know ray those styles really dont mimic the anaimals per say
tiger stylist dont run around on all fours going RAWWWWWWR! at people lol[/QUOTE]
I know, but I’ve been around Kung Fu long enough… plenty of fools with visions of grandeur about the strength of their finger strikes and claws. Even if they could produce the pain they think they can while in REAL combat, how much training to achieve that when an elbow opens people up and stops them quite effectively without all the drama.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;973459]TCMA addresses the ground scenario more than you think.[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen it addressed by Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Southern Mantis, Ba GUa, Hsing-I and Taiji… The best three were the last three but it all relied upon stuffing the shot, usually with a counter attack. Very difficult to counter attack when someone attacks while changing levels. You’re focused on the game where it is and then not only does their countenance change, but so does their level. This is why sprawling works. Instead of trying to capture a head and an arm and roll to flip someone, it’s easier to dive the legs back once you realize the change. If you did it well enough and in time you have great position. That’s enough. That’s a realistic return for being right.
I still think if one wants to train the ground game BJJ is the way to go. Its constantly evolving and being pushed, tested internationally. The stuff is beautiful, uncomplicated and it works.
Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5WD36oHTnU
I like that guys style.
My last post got me thinking about traditional form… most of them have level changes, yet when I see Kung Fu and Karate guys spar (not point) I rarely if ever see them change levels.
I think this comes from not fighting out enough and being forced to break from the traditional norm. Someone as keen as you can be taken advantage of by changing levels.
[QUOTE=goju;973440]you know ray those styles really dont mimic the anaimals per say
tiger stylist dont run around on all fours going RAWWWWWWR! at people lol[/QUOTE]i dunno… you should see me after i eat an 1/8th of shrooms. 
From where I am sitting , it looks like you are pulling out your own teeth. LOL!
haha if that’s what you think, keep on thinking it has no effect on me. you really need to lighten up. your way to uptight about stuff.. 
TCMA addresses the ground scenario more than you think.
but not totally in the way BJJ and grappling arts do.
As usual, you are missing the bigger picture. It is not about ground fighting or stand up fighting. It is about fighting. Most if not all TCMAs provide the answers you are looking for, but perhaps not in ways that you expect. All you need is to study one major style holistically and profoundly. Of course, in the Mcdojo era this is easier said than done. So if all else fails, there is nothing wrong with looking for your answers in a BJJ or Judo dojo.
again you put words in my mouth. I’m not looking for “your” bigger picture. I’m very happy with what I am doing. Anyways this post was about some dude doing a tiger tech. I was commenting that if you want the ‘good stuff’ go were it is.
and another thing don’t tell me what I need to do, you may get away with that in your spartan regiment, doesn’t work on the internet… sheee…:rolleyes:
P.S. do you really think i want to carry on an intelligent conversation with you? grow up… i don’t care what you think, i care that u spout your dogma to everyone around here like it’s the honest truth. Your like a carpetbagger selling snake oil for the right price. Your a dime a dozen just like every other person out there selling there mythical heal all crap. poison would be a better word. but hey it’s my opinion and i’m more than welcome to it.
you’ve already shown me enough of your “philosophy” to really not care for an intelligent conversation with you.
PS. Read Ray Pina’s post on this subject so that you get an idea how to approach this disucssion from an intelligent MMA perspective,
People who actually do grappling/groundfighting for real against actual skilled, resisting opponents know which of those techs work and which of them don’t. The guy on the video doesn’t have a clue which of those are viable and which are not.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;973372]People are NOT animals and as such, technically and technique-wise, they can’t fight like animals.
The 5 animals, for example, were syetms based on the strategies and “intents” of those animals.
Aggresive like a tiger, fluid like a dragon ,etc.
Sometimes I system would denote a mode of applying a technqiue, like the coiling of a snake or the evasive action of a crane.
As with all things, certain moves and hand formations became “noted” with those systems, like the tiger claw.
Was the tiger claw an equivelant to a real tiger claw? of course not, not unless someone grew out some seriously long and strong finger nails.
But the claw was used effectively and with the proper intent of the “animal shaman”, it became very “tiger-like”.
But don’t think that the growling and “theatrical” crap was anything but theatrical.[/QUOTE]
Excellent post overall, however I will take issue with the last statement.
In our Hung-Ga, the breathing in each animal, along with their respective sounds serve a purpose.
The breathing in Dragon is akin to the throaty hiss heard in saamjien, and serves the same purpose, packing the breath/organs, and releasing pressures, allowing the practitioner to absorb strikes to the body.
The “Tsst” in Snake is a quick, short release of portions of breath, while maintaining a reserve. As one of my former Sifus (Michael Manganiello) said, “They are very miserly with their breath.” One breath, several strikes.
The “Wah” sound of the Tiger originates in the chakra of the solar plexus, and according to the noi-gung I was taught, is used to release anger. The “FFU” sound used on the Single Tiger, provides the float,sink,swallow,spit technique used in that movement.
The “Op” sound of the Crane is a quick release,used together with a sinking of the body (we make the sound more like a breathed, “hup,” and do not use the “OOOP” sound you see many do in demos-frankly, I have no freakin idea what they are doing) This helps release the bin-ging, or whipping energy for the specific strikes.
The Leopard uses short,quick breaths, as you would use for a jab, and longer breaths for the long armed strikes.
Nothing mystical or theatrical.
Then again, this is the way my Gung-Fu is played, and might be different than what others do.
. Muay Thai uses different sounds as well. Some people go, “oish,” some hiss, some go “Aaaghht”, etc. depending on the technique and school.
[QUOTE=uki;973483]i dunno… you should see me after i eat an 1/8th of shrooms. :p[/QUOTE]
That made me laugh you freak:)
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;973505]People who actually do grappling/groundfighting for real against actual skilled, resisting opponents know which of those techs work and which of them don’t. The guy on the video doesn’t have a clue which of those are viable and which are not.[/QUOTE]
I have to agree with this for one reason only: Many, if not most of the early throws I saw left him in equal if not lesser position then the man he threw. This is a video he’s putting out to promote himself or his style, I have to assume he thinks its good.
The throws themselves are beautiful. The neck captures and cranks very cool. But to be on your a$$ with your legs in the air and not immediately recover to lock down side control, get guard, take the back, shows a lack of understanding the absolute fundamentals of ground fighting … all fighting: position. position. position.
To attempt to capture the head – while on one leg – instead of immediately fighting to recover your own captured leg (either from a shoot or stuffed kick) reveals that A) the person has never had to “finish” the move because one can not generate adequate power from that position and B) doesn’t truly understand the stakes… ie, he will be dropped and at the mercy of an educated ground man who WILL secure position and work it.
Just my thoughts. But again, I think its great to be having the conversation. I honestly don’t know why Kung Fu guys don’t moonlight at BJJ clubs. They’re there. They’ll condition the hell out of you, teach you new valuable skills and generally make you a better physical/balanced being.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;973512]Excellent post overall, however I will take issue with the last statement.
In our Hung-Ga, the breathing in each animal, along with their respective sounds serve a purpose.
The breathing in Dragon is akin to the throaty hiss heard in saamjien, and serves the same purpose, packing the breath/organs, and releasing pressures, allowing the practitioner to absorb strikes to the body.
The “Tsst” in Snake is a quick, short release of portions of breath, while maintaining a reserve. As one of my former Sifus (Michael Manganiello) said, “They are very miserly with their breath.” One breath, several strikes.
The “Wah” sound of the Tiger originates in the chakra of the solar plexus, and according to the noi-gung I was taught, is used to release anger. The “FFU” sound used on the Single Tiger, provides the float,sink,swallow,spit technique used in that movement.
The “Op” sound of the Crane is a quick release,used together with a sinking of the body (we make the sound more like a breathed, “hup,” and do not use the “OOOP” sound you see many do in demos-frankly, I have no freakin idea what they are doing) This helps release the bin-ging, or whipping energy for the specific strikes.
The Leopard uses short,quick breaths, as you would use for a jab, and longer breaths for the long armed strikes.
Nothing mystical or theatrical.
Then again, this is the way my Gung-Fu is played, and might be different than what others do.
. Muay Thai uses different sounds as well. Some people go, “oish,” some hiss, some go “Aaaghht”, etc. depending on the technique and school.[/QUOTE]
Hey Sui Lum brother, just for a point of contrast, our breathing is totally different. When I train, I breathe in and squeeze it out over a ‘duration’. The sounds are simply by products. Likewise, I train to move in the inhale as well as the exhale. You shouldn’t hear my breath punctuate my movements, and my movement is not restrained by my breathing.
The result from the slow squeezing out of breath is similar to what you call Dragon.
Not sure if this kind of breathing has a name, I just know its not Sui Lum style generally. I think its Taoist.
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;973463]I’ve seen it addressed by Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Southern Mantis, Ba GUa, Hsing-I and Taiji… [/quote]
I believe that there would even be differences withing individual lineages of each of the above styles as to how they dealt with the ground scenario.
The Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun that I practice has ground fighting training as a part of its traditional curriculum. There is nothing borrowed from BJJ or Judo. Unfortunately, I had to move away before I reached that level. Even though I meet up with sifu every so often to train when I travel to Rio, it is usually to polish up what I already know rather than learning new skills. All I can say is this kind of ground fighting involves going to ground and finishing the job there through the use of Chin-na and striking while maintaining the WC prinicples.
I agree with you that the method you described is a more practical and logical method. Knowing the TCMAs, IMHO, if one manages to learn their approach(s) which is more complicated (as in a lot of things they do, Lol) one can have a valid method to play with. Next question would be where to learn this in a world full of Mcdojos/kwoons?
I always say this because most people who practice TCMAs do not seem to do so holistically that is in a hard core all encompassing way. How many people do we see with a perfect Iron Palm/fist, ETC, skill? How many who have fine tuned sensitivity, how many who have the real body unity and destructive and or shock power that one can get from proper internal practice? How many so called TCMA practitioners even understand the concepts behind what I described. I am making a general point.
Going on and staying with Tiger Claw. How many people who practice this style can do any damage with their fingers (claws). In many other kung fu styles the conditioning of fingers has been fundental as they provide the longest reach that the upper limbs provide and they can do a lot of damage if they are hard and used with RELAXED power.
I use this example because after all, we use our claws or fingers to grab, hence grapple. The fact is that many people go through the motions of a given style and end up learining some tricks that may or may not come handy in a street scenario depending on many other factors. Once they meet a trained fighter from another style then they are in trouble because they are badly trained in a kung fu “shell” style.
Many TCMAs will teach you to hit the incoming take down attempt using a (vibrating) palm strike to the head or in some cases an elbow (or other strike), but how are you going to do that if your strikes bounce off the incoming fighter ( that is, no real power!!!). How is one going to make contact without having the awareness, calmness and the sensitivity to “listen” to the changes in your opponent. These are skills that one is supposed to learn albeit in a relatively longer term when training higher level TCMAs. However, nowadays people with “years” of TCMA experience are not even aware of the concepts I just mentioned or if they are it will usually be a superficial understanding, with no idea of the profound levels that these concepts go to.
So I really believe that the way things are today in the TCMA world, one is unlikely to learn any TCMA arts in a holistic way (unless one is really lucky and comes across an authentic school that will teach him and he in turn has the attention span to follow the distinct methodology required). That being the case then I can understand the need for many to look outside to complete their skills. It is all fair and square as there are many functional external arts that will do the trick in a shorter time span.
I would say that if grappling arts are your main interest then BJJ is one of the best options.
Thank you. That is a great demonstration of the effectiveness of BJJ. I used to see a lot of those guys when I used to live in Rio de Janeiro (I am hoping to live there again in the not so distant future). My sifu used to teach his WC in a gym owned by BJJ instructors. All the BJJ guys that I saw were very respectul to sifu and us kung fu guys in general.
HW108
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;973490]haha if that’s what you think, keep on thinking it has no effect on me. you really need to lighten up. your way to uptight about stuff.. :)[/quote]
How much more can I lighten up besides laughing my head off every time I read one of your “kung fu” posts.?..LOL.
How many "decades"of training did it take you to realize that? Lol
Honestly, I am not as I wouldn’t know where to start…Lol
Isn’t the purpose of life to look at the bigger picture? And it is not “my” bigger picture as the bigger picture is constant. Think about it!
And as I have said to you many times before, if you are happy then I am happy.
From my past interaction with you I have realized that you have an aversion to the use of the word, master, but using the word, “Dude”? COME ON!!! LOL
Just call him sifu instead of “dude” or is this a modern scientifically approved way of addressing kung fu teachers that I have not heard about? LOL
My “good stuff” is incorporated in my kung fu training. If yours is not then please go where your “good stuff” is.
Actually, what you need to do is to NOT address your posts to me because I prefere to talk about authentic kung fu training and we all know that you will end up with a confused glazed look on your face every time you read about the more unusual kung fu practices. And of course, none of us want to worry any of your loved ones who may stand witness to your hopeless confusion…LOL
You would if you were intelligent.
I spout “dogma”? LOL
Read my post to Ray Pina and see if you see any “dogma” there…LOL
Why should i sell anything to you? In the past I presented a TCMA training methodology that was alien to you. You more or less said “if I don’t know about it then it does not exist”. I more or less replied that you were clueless and that there are a lot more unknown (to you) concepts where that came from. End of the story!!! I am not selling a school, DVDs etc. So don’t be so confused go and sit down and meditate using some internal breathing to cool down. This advice was free and there is not price tag to it. LOL
You are being purposefully deceitful with the above remark. Can you elighten us to EXACTLY what you are referring to? Thanks in advance.
Is that why you composed your idiotic post above? LOL!
HW108
i love when people talk about real kung fu but then won’t speak about their lineage or how long they have trained… that speaks volumes about how much training they have had :rolleyes:
now back on topic as knifefighter said those that have grappled know which of those techniques will work and which won’t,
[QUOTE=Frost;973568]i love when people talk about real kung fu[/QUOTE]
Well, that is a start…LOL.
What should speak volumes to you is the content of my posts regarding authentic kung fu practices. Anyone can put up lineages and impressive training time spans here. Others here have had intelligent discussions with me. Look and learn.
Your “problem” stems from a past thread where you having not managed to recognize a certain TCMA power building methodology that I was talking about, went on to recommend Olympic weight training ( you really, and I mean really, couldn’t invent this stuff…LOL)practices to improve the methodology of a relatively obscure kung fu lineage that you had no idea about.
Then you had the audacity to ask for my lineage and history as if me typing some number and a name on the World Wide Web would enlighten you to the methodology you had not heard of…LOL I mean what hope would you have of recognizing the sifu, lineage and its not so well known, methodology? The answer is NOTHING! You are just trying to save face…LOL.
HW108
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;973570]Well, that is a start…LOL.
What should speak volumes to you is the content of my posts regarding authentic kung fu practices. Anyone can put up lineages and impressive training time spans here. Others here have had intelligent discussions with me. Look and learn.
Your “problem” stems from a past thread where you having not managed to recognize a certain TCMA power building methodology that I was talking about, went on to recommend Olympic weight training ( you really, and I mean really, couldn’t invent this stuff…LOL)practices to improve the methodology of a relatively obscure kung fu lineage that you had no idea about.
Then you had the audacity to ask for my lineage and history as if me typing some number and a name on the World Wide Web would enlighten you to the methodology you had not heard of…LOL I mean what hope would you have of recognizing the sifu, lineage and its not so well known, methodology? The answer is NOTHING! You are just trying to save face…LOL.
HW108[/QUOTE]
Trying to save face is an eastern concept not something I am interested in, nor is arguing with someone who has no idea about how other arts train jing/shock power. I never mentioned chow gar in any of my posts, I only came into the discussion to show David he was wrong about weight lifting, I then mentioned I had trained in, shock power, iron palm and iron body, I never mentioned I had trained in chow gar (these things are trained in other southern and internal arts)
I said you can increase power using modern methods like Olympic lifting, actually I originally said to David why get worked up about jing, its just sound body structure and the ability to relax and exert force quickly, all of which can be learned through weight training .
Why is it audacity to ask for lineage? you are the one going on about authentic kung fu and authentic teachers, I simply asked you to show us how authentic your teachers were, to put your money where your mouth is. I am still waiting..
Oh I dont know I know a fair few of the southern maters teaching in the UK, I believe thats where you learned your chow gar and if I dont I am sure someone else here knows of them
[QUOTE=Frost;973574]Why is it audacity to ask for lineage? you are the one going on about authentic kung fu and authentic teachers, I simply asked you to show us how authentic your teachers were.[/QUOTE]at the end of the day each and every person will have a martial art that is completely and entirely their own, the only true lasting things a so called teacher/master/sifu/sensei will give to us are a set of concepts, methods, and ideals that we must construct into a shape and form that bests suits our strengths and weakness, which evolve with us as we progress - what i am saying is that ultimately we are the only true masters of ourself. i had the pleasure of meeting a certain woman named marilyn cooper, who was a student of a certain peter kwok. one of the first things she told me was, “i am not your teacher, i am just a messenger.” those words were driven into my being… LOL… interesting thing about her is that she is an earth ox, which is the same exact sign that my boss is… the ox is considered the only sign that a tiger should be wary of - both are thee biggest influences that have had a drastic and profound impact on how i percieve the world… this sign is also the sign of the newborn child that will be born to us in just under a month from now, so this event will bring the grand tally total of the earth ox’s that have impacted my life to 3. on the other end of the spectrum, the only way i am able to cope with these two unstoppable and immovable beasts of ambition is the fact that my element of wood subdues their element of earth… hahahahahahahaha!!! even though they can trample me down like a herd of buffalo, i can still scratch their a$$ with my sharp little claws.
back on topic… the argument of the non resiting opponent is moot. this appears to be an informational video, therefore the concept in it’s perfect and unflawed state is shown - not to show what will happen each and every time it is attempted, but rather to give us another constructive idea that we can add to our possibility of execution when an appropriate situation arises.