Rene, I’m not sure I understand you, so I prefer to ask. Are you saying that if you want to fight against a particular style you need to practice this style?
vt108 - Nope, I’m saying you need to practice against the various methods (in a generic sort of way- against long bridge style fists, high kicks, shoots, etc.). That way, when someone whip-hammer’s you, thai roundkicks you, or goes for a double-leg, you aren’t surprised and already have some idea about what works and what doesn’t. Same goes for ground. If you’re attacked on the ground (while sleeping, reclining, etc.) or you slip and fall (icy), or you get taken down (better shooter than you are shoot-defender), if you’ve trained how to use your WCK already that way, you’ll be familiar, comfortable, and better able to apply it when you need to.
Rgds,
RR
When I hear things like that I realize there are only few people in the world who really know what WC is about.
Seeing this reminds me of an epigram from a non-MA forum:
“Most people think that 90% of the people in the world are idiots, but that they belong to the other 10%.”
The various “know your enemy” quotes from Sun Tzu, et al, indicate that knowledge of another style’s key strategies will improve your chances of victory against it. you don’t necessarily have to embark on a lifetime study of it, but becoming xenophobic about it and thus not exploring is foolish.
It’s a big wide world out there. Lots of information from lots of different sources, easily available. It’s up to you whether you you want to take the many opportunities to learn available to you or not. Putting down others who disagree with your opinion indicates defensiveness, insecurity and a lack of mental flexibility IMO.
Another appropriate quote from another forum from IMHO one of the better MA coaches on the planet:
[I]Because of the positive lifestyle changes it can make, including survivability and longevity, people take martial art training too seriously. Often this results in martial art becoming drama. Drama queens love gossip, contraversy and conspiracy-theorizing.
Ultimately, it’s all good. There are many paths to the same goal, and many modes of traveling. [/I]
IMO it’s better to look for common ground with other MAs and their practitioners, rather than look for reasons to create divisions. The statements of narrow-minded and bombastic individuals in any style are almost always best ignored.
Yes, you all are right. Just today I start my BJJ training. Or maybe it would be better if I buy a gun. It will take me a life time looking for a practicioner of every style so I can look how they attack me.
“When I hear things like that I realize there are only few people in the world who really know what WC is about.”
I did not think I belong to those few so next time make sure what I think before you write things like that:
“Most people think that 90% of the people in the world are idiots, but that they belong to the other 10%”
“Putting down others who disagree with your opinion indicates defensiveness, insecurity and a lack of mental flexibility IMO.”
And I was looking for a good psychologist so long time…
Dude, I don’t presume to know (or care) what you are thinking but I found that "only few people in the world " line pretty condescending.
If you don’t train BJJ or do firearms, your choice. My instructor, who I suspect many would agree belongs to your “few people in the world”, trains in and teaches BJJ, and requires me to demonstrate proficiency in it, knife and single and double stick fighting, and firearms, as well as the traditional WC weapons, to complete my education in his version of the Wing Chun system. This is the 21st century.
If you feel you can get everything you need out of your WC training as is, more power to you. I wish you well. If you feel you have to criticise those who feel differently, I see that as your problem, not mine.
Good luck in your training! All I can say is that known masters like Yip Man, Wong Shun Leung and others did not practice BJJ and other things and they won all the time. Why? Because Wing Chun has all the answers but unfortunatelly only few (like I wrote before) possesed skills so they don’t need to complement Wing Chun with other styles. And I know I’m not in the “few” yet. I don’t know if I ever will be “one of the few”, probably not. But I can draw a conclusions from the past and I know that Wing Chun never had to complement its arsenal.
If somebody feel offended by my words I apologize. It wasn’t my intention to do so. I just can’t understand why having such a great system people want to loose time for a bs.
This is my opinion.
vt108
vt108. You wrote>
All I can say is that known masters like Yip Man, Wong Shun Leung and others did not practice BJJ and other things and they won all the time. <<
Please forgive me if I offend you, but that’s a fairly specious argument. The fact is that the entire field of martial arts training is DIFFERENT to that of the time of Yip Man. People of his era dealt with, for the most part, stylists who trained a single system, and had exposure mainly to the arts of their locale.
I’m fairly sure YM didn’t visit Brazil and challenge Helio Gracie…so he wouldn’t know about BJJ 
Nevertheless, we live in a world where martial artists have access to material from around the globe, and modern training methods. People with any sense of reality realise that
crosstraining is a must, assuming you have a thorough base upon which to build.
Similarly, people who trot out facile replies like “Oh if somebody tries to take me down, I’ll eye jab etc etc” simply haven’t had anybody good try and do it to them. It’s that simple.
Individuals with high skill levels in wing chun like Yip Man, Sum Nung etc may get away with that, but I’m not one of them, so I look at how other good practitioners of real fighting styles attack, and deal with them accordingly. I do this by training with them (and in my eyes against them), rather than ignoring their existence just because “Yip Man didn’t need to…”
The ostrich hides his head in the sand, and thinks that danger isn’t there. See any parallels?
Tata,
Haggis
Good point Haggis
Personally, I think if Yip Man could do something with Wing Chun that other practitioners cannot, even after years of training, then they are doing something differently. From what I understand, Yip Man wasn’t the kind of guy to lay out all his cards on the table.
I still believe that WC has all you (aka anyone) need, if you have the time to learn it all. I guess it depends on how dangerous a world you live in, because that is going to dictate the speed with which you need to acquire certain skills of self-defense.
vt108. I didn’t say practice bjj on the ground. I said “practice on the ground”. I said don’t practice anything else that takes too much time. I have plenty of faith in wc thank you. And in mine.
Thanks Anerlich, for fielding this geezer, who doesn’t wanna waste time with bs, but posts x times before apologising for winding people up and suggesting that they said something they didn’t. You’re obviously more patient than I am.
Rene, interesting question, and one that I ask myself after every chi sau session. I still have no answer. What I do know is I haven’t done any grappling in wc that is half as effective as that in my aiki. Now, I’m not saying this is because of a defect in the system, I think it’s because my teachers have never been shown them properly. This worries me. That means their teachers weren’t shown them properly, so how far does this go back?!
The only conclusion I have come to so far judging by what people have said on the forum,is that some people teach effective grappling in wc, and some don’t! Judging also by the pictures on your system’s website, your system does more grappling than the ones I have trained in. Whether it is effective or not, I can’t say without feeling it. Looks interesting.
I do think wc is a good enough system not to use much grappling though. I can only use my aiki techniques when someone has failed in their wc structure. And then it is because: (1) my wc technique is not good enough to respond in a wc manner, or (2) when the aiki technique is more direct, or it accomplishes something that I don’t know how to do in wc (eg: control of someone so that they can’t hit me, and/or so I don’t have to keep hitting them to stop them from attacking me).
The second case is more rare, but it does happen.
Aiki’s evasive footwork can also be useful when you are in a tight spot. It’s a complete surprise to suddenly find you’re behind them. If you mess up the time and are intercepted, wc’s centreline recovery is perfect to put you back on target and cover yours.
Also the use of tegatana with tai atari. Tegatana is the handblade, tai atari the body slam. The energy is different to any I’ve come across in wc: it’s a strike through centreline which then follows through in a cutting motion, ending in standing where they were before they hit the dirt. I’ve used this a few times in chi sau and sparring, and once in the street.
If I had started wc before aiki, I would have never checked out aiki. Now, I don’t practice aiki because of unrelated problems I have with the style, but I do intend to go back to it. I intend to become much better in wc before I do though, and will also continue wc for the rest of my life.
It’s just more options!
To follow from dz’s overlaps:
control of centreline is the biggie. If you take most aiki moves and shorten them, with a strong irimi (body entry), and a whippier, more penetrative action (to suit the shorter range) instead of the bigger cutting one… you get wing chun! Most aiki hand movements are circular, but if you shorten them, you are effectively taking a route between two points on a very large circle: pretty **** close to a straight line!
Indeed Mat!
Something i’ve found mucking around with my Aiki buddies is that if my WCK structure is correct, it’s hard for them to do a technique on me. If not, then i usually hit the ground
If i stay relaxed and regain my posture, i cna usually change to something else.
david
some of you are the reason that wing chun is goin’ down hill so fast. why do you even bother with such little faith.
i will start by saying i know for a fact that wong faced at least one high level judo player(don’t know his name but do know they now believe this bjj comes from ) & i’m sure he would have at least had to deal with people with knowledge in shiu shao & chin na. there are also a number of stories of both yip & wong having to deal with multiple opponents to which i have never heard any from a bjj guy.
so please lay off the ‘they never dealt with grapplers garbage’
i can understand that most these days don’t have the time or inclination to train as hard as they used to but that is your short coming not wing chun’s.
again you all put down vt108 for having faith in what he does without knowing the first thing of his sifu or where his knowledge & belief comes from.
'The only conclusion I have come to so far judging by what people have said on the forum,is that some people teach effective grappling in wc, and some don’t! ’
the only conclusion i can come up with from this is that if they are teaching grappling in their wing chun then it’s not wing chun.
i have seen, tried, used & probably chocked out more people than most grapplers these days probably will in a life time, so believe me i know both sides of this argument.
if you want to start on me with that ‘but you’ve done it, how can you critisise’, well i did 4 lessons about 8 years ago.
i have many friends who practice(some of which have been to brasil on more than one occassion to train)& teach this & they understand one thing that some of you fools don’t & odviously never will ‘IT IS THE MAN NOT THE STYLE’
do you want to know what some grapplers think of ving tsun- well about 2 years ago one of our senior girls was going out with a friend of mine.(he is one of the senior student here in machado bjj & one of the ones who has travelled to brasil aswell as the states to train) they decided to try and organise some matches between the 2 school(she never told our instructor)
such was there concern that they were actually lining up elvis sinosic(of the ufc) to fight me, the funny part is that i hadn’t trained actively in quite some time due to the births of my children, yet they were that concered they were going to bring in a pro fighter for this little old bum who basically only knows ving tsun.
i could go on all day as this is something i DO know alot about but then again it & what i have already said is probably only falling on arrogant & deaf ears anyways.
i will finish by saying this ‘if you had as much faith in the art as you do not, then you would go a hell of a lot better’
if you train hard, you’ll not only be hard, you’ll be hard to beat.
no ring, no rules, no referee. THE STREET( the real ufc)
vts
The thread title should say Grappling in WIng Chun, not Grappling vs. Wing Chun. SMILE. Hope this helps!!!
I like to think of it this way; If I where good enough at WC I wouldn’t have to bother with JJ.
And no, I’m not a newbie at WC!
And yes, I really enjoy BJJ. It is like chi-sao with your whole body.
VTS
VTS,
My school actually has a pretty good relationship with the Machado Organisation (we are a Will/Machado affiliate). We actually have John Will (BJJ Black Belt) giving a seminar at our school on Saturday. He and his senior guys are all very good, very helpful, and very polite. I’ve met them outside of formal situations and no one’s ever put down WC - or for that matter, any other style - in my presence.
From Newcastle we’ve had Sean Kirkwood and Luke Beston at our school. Everyone who hangs out on MA forums on the internet knows Luke is the highest profile BJJ troll in the universe, but he actually posted some highly complimentary stuff about Rick Spain and our Academy on MMA.com (now MMA.tv).
Rick gets a lot of respect form those guys, including Elvis, as he has had a long ring-fighting career. Some regard him almost with awe. Elvis said to Rick “Jeez, you’re shorter than me!” when they met the first time. Rick trains with the Sydney Machado guys about once a week.
Wing Chun’s still our base, alpha and omega. But only a fool would ignore an opportunity to learn like this if it were dropped in his lap, as it was with me.
I agree with Roy and Nichiren. you can grapple using WC and its principles. If you do BJJ for a while, you see lots of stuff with WC analogues.
hi anerlich
i know sean & am friends with luke, ask him if he knows me(anthony coleman) & he will probably have a good laugh as he knows what a lazy fuk i am. he was at my house for new years 2 years ago & i’ve been out on it with him & the boys a few times.
we have no trouble with them & nothing but respect for each other.
this whole incident was sorted when i rang sean & told him that the first either me or the instructor had heard of it was through another friend of mine from ving tsun who now trains with them.
it seems the girl had assured them it had been all cleared by her sifu, which it had not. sean laughed because he knows bill(the teacher up here)& actually had thought it was strange.
unfortunately these matches may have seemed friendly but when you deal with peoples egos(esp. in a smaller place like newie) things can change very quickly. the thing with elvis was from my friend but i’m sure he wouldn’t lie, maybe they needed him as i wiegh 114 kilos & they may not have anyone in my wieght(ps i don’t really think i needed my butt kicked anyways:D nothing but respect here, he trains hard & fights hard) besides that it was nice to find out off someone that hey your names been thrown in to fight without even being consulted
out or the 4 or so lessons i had i think 2 were with sean besides that i know a few of our guys have also been to train with him.
the other person i trained with was niel bodicott who fought in the oz ufc.
i personally have nothing against bjj & if ving tsun wasn’t available it & boxing would be my chioces.
as for luke(pitbull) being a troll- that’s him alright. he is secretly in love with matt furey you know;)
we should definitely hook up sometime, even if you come up here i have 16 wrestling matts & we could have some fun. i also am one of the very few who have vidoes of my sifu dealing with the whole of the first & second forms that you may be interested in watching & also give you an insite as to why i view ving tsun the way i do.
as to why i get upset with some about the way they view wing chun, it’s like i said b4
‘‘i can understand that most these days don’t have the time or inclination to train as hard as they used to but that is your short coming not wing chun’s.’’
that is my personal belief & i’m sorry for those that in reality have no respect for the art that they practice.
regards
vts
sorry
barry is my sifu.
vts
“The fact is that the entire field of martial arts training is DIFFERENT to that of the time of Yip Man.”
Yes it is different. First of all people trained earlier for REAL because their skills was the only thing they got to stay alive in many situations. Today you don’t need to know martial art to defend yourself. You can use a gun for example. But if you want to really know your style you have to practice the way it was practiced before. I hope you understand what I mean, if not, I’m sorry.
“I’m fairly sure YM didn’t visit Brazil and challenge Helio Gracie…so he wouldn’t know about BJJ”
Yes, and if he would, he surely would loose this fight
“People with any sense of reality realise that crosstraining is a must, assuming you have a thorough base upon which to build.”
Yes, especially those who don’t know their own system or those who does’t want put more effort in training. So you are saying that anyone who don’t crosstrain have no sense or reality?
“Individuals with high skill levels in wing chun like Yip Man, Sum Nung etc may get away with that, but I’m not one of them, so I look at how other good practitioners of real fighting styles attack, and deal with them accordingly.”
Who are those “other good practitioners”? Because I know good practiotioners who need anything besides Wing Chun to deal with every situations.
“The ostrich hides his head in the sand, and thinks that danger isn’t there. See any parallels?”
I think you have hide your head somewhere else than in the sand. Just take it out of this place. PEACE!
“Thanks Anerlich, for fielding this geezer, who doesn’t wanna waste time with bs, but posts x times before apologising for winding people up and suggesting that they said something they didn’t. You’re obviously more patient than I am.”
Believe me. If I were not at work I wouldn’t waste time for writing all this. Unfortunately I can’t practcie at work.
Issues
such misguided aggression. You guys weaned off the pottie too fast?