Hate you got confused,
I’ve read it over many times and just can’t see what you’re saying, it’s all good.
Take care,
[QUOTE=Ali. R;1176580]Hate you got confused,
I’ve read it over many times and just can’t see what you’re saying, it’s all good.
Take care,[/QUOTE]
Perhaps I misread, although it also appears clear to me in Black and White, well to be honest when I quoted it is really in black and blue 
Not something worth arguing over to me. If you don’t see it then maybe it is not there. 
No problem.
Politics
One thing I do know is this; you could join an association and spend a lot of time with big name guys through correspondent/seminars classes while in another state, but when your money runs out; you just can’t tell the public where or who you got your wing chun from, if you decide to start teaching classes, which is total BS.
[QUOTE=Ali. R;1176563]So you’re saying that the names makes them solid and if one is not promoted or promote themselves as Yip Man’s student’s, then they are not real; when there’s sifus that have came from all walks of life that people never heard of have expressed their connection to ‘Yip Man’ and with skills to back it up.
Ali- I don;t think that you read my original post correctly…causing some diversion/confusion in the discussion by you and someone else. All I said was that Grados isn’t in the Ho/Fong lineage as he claims on his web site.
I’ve just looked at his site for the first time ever. I know nothing about his lineage or his personality. Some of the stuff on his web page wasn’t my cup of tea but its not the worst I’ve seen and it’s certainly a heck of a lot better than some stuff I’ve seen on here. There’s obviously some history around this, where does all the negativity stem from?
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1176608][QUOTE=Ali. R;1176563]All I said was that Grados isn’t in the Ho/Fong lineage as he claims on his web site.[/QUOTE]
Just so we are clear, you are saying this is all lies and you are calling Sifu Grados is a liar?
http://www.sifugrados.com/sifugrados.shtml/sifamilytree.shtml
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1176686]http://www.sifugrados.com/sifugrados.shtml/sifamilytree.shtml[/QUOTE]
Grados seems pretty clear on his instructors. Joy says accurately that he does not currently represent Ho Kam Ming or Augustine Fong.
Grados web site indicates he was in Fong’s org from 1990 - 1998.
His wing chun now seems to be a combination of his previous instructors plus his street fighting. Obasi who has some cage fights doesn’t seem to think highly of this combo.
Most of the “street fighting” I’ve seen falls in a couple of categories - a lot of role-based drilling like Krav Maga, or more live energy training which is your STAB/Die Less Often self defense stuff. I’m unfamiliar with which side or approach Grados system leans toward.
Just from my .02, knowing nothing of Grados, the whole “Street Combat” thing IMO attracts way too many b@d@$$es (i.e. those who view themselves as that). I mean my “Street Combat” approach would be avoid bad areas at bad times, and carry whatever non-lethal weapon alternatives I’m comfortable with and the law allows. And get a concealed carry permit. No eye contact and be non-confrontational. Not real exciting, certainly not enough to earn a living teaching “Street Combat”.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1176608][QUOTE=Ali. R;1176563]So you’re saying that the names makes them solid and if one is not promoted or promote themselves as Yip Man’s student’s, then they are not real; when there’s sifus that have came from all walks of life that people never heard of have expressed their connection to ‘Yip Man’ and with skills to back it up.
Ali- I don;t think that you read my original post correctly…causing some diversion/confusion in the discussion by you and someone else. All I said was that Grados isn’t in the Ho/Fong lineage as he claims on his web site.[/QUOTE]
PS. there is a lot of sloppy usage of the term “lineage”. Older usages of the term is definitely diluted
in much contemporary usage WSL, Lok Yiu, TST, LS, HKM learned directly from IM for some time
so they can “trace” their “lineage” to IM.
One can attend a couple of seminars and maybe sponsor a seminar- that does not mean that a lineage is established in the traditional sense of the word.
Again- this is not related to fighting ability.. lots of people can fight with or without a lineage
in a TCMA style. Nothing personal.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1176709] WSL, Lok Yiu, TST, LS, HKM learned directly from IM for some time so they can “trace” their “lineage” to IM.
One can attend a couple of seminars and maybe sponsor a seminar- that does not mean that a lineage is established in the traditional sense of the word.
[/QUOTE]
So what’s the magic number for “some time” where someone can trace their lineage to IM?
I mean to a certain extent if a guy is teaching what he learned from Ip Man directly in privates, he’s an Ip Man guy. That’s his lineage. If he’s got an imperfect understanding, then shouldn’t all his hotshot older brothers get with him and help him out? Or should they all sit around, point fingers, and tout their own perfect class attendance record over a longer period of time?
I mean, for example, is Bruce Lee in the Ip Man “lineage”? If he’s not, he ought to be just due to the number of times his name comes up in Ip Man lineage sifus marketing spiels.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1176712]So what’s the magic number for “some time” where someone can trace their lineage to IM?
I mean to a certain extent if a guy is teaching what he learned from Ip Man directly in privates, he’s an Ip Man guy. That’s his lineage. If he’s got an imperfect understanding, then shouldn’t all his hotshot older brothers get with him and help him out? Or should they all sit around, point fingers, and tout their own perfect class attendance record over a longer period of time?
I mean, for example, is Bruce Lee in the Ip Man “lineage”? If he’s not, he ought to be just due to the number of times his name comes up in Ip Man lineage sifus marketing spiels.[/QUOTE]
BL was in the IP Man lineage-WSL was his regular wc sifu -wsl correctly regarded him as his student. IM corrected some of his student’s students on occasion.BL was a very talented person and athletically gifted and very committed to training. He left further wc training when he left HK and went on to other things both in styles and career.
Some of IM’s senior students have helped out with other juniors- that includes WSL, TST and HKM.
and some others.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1176700]Grados seems pretty clear on his instructors. Joy says accurately that he does not currently represent Ho Kam Ming or Augustine Fong.[/QUOTE]
Joy didn’t say represent, he said - "IMO he is NOT in the Ho/Fong lineage despite his web site." and “Grados isn’t in the Ho/Fong lineage as he claims on his web site”. So, he is saying Grados didn’t train in that lineage and calling Grados a liar (which he was too pu55y to answer when I asked him directly). Maybe Joy’s right and in that case should prove how he knows Grados never trained in that lineage, or joy is just talking out his a55.
If Grados trained in that lineage for 8 years like he says, then he will ALWAYS be a part of that lineage, even if he stops teaching that method/curriculum. Even being ‘kicked out’ wouldn’t erase those years of training - it would still still part of Sifu Grado’s past/personal lineage.
Example, and I’ll use myself on this: If I quite learning or teaching HFY today (which I am not planning on), it would still ALWAYS still be part of my lineage. Just like my father is part of my lineage.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1176700]Grados web site indicates he was in Fong’s org from 1990 - 1998.[/QUOTE]
Yup, he also says he has documentation from Fong. Either I’m missing something, Grado’s is lying or Joy has some big magically history eraser he’s trying to scrub Grado’s past with! So Joy, please clear this up and explain for us all why you think Grados is lying about those 8 years.
All Grados did was go to a seminar or two. That’s it. No continual corrospondence or training. He is wrong to say he comes from Fong Sifu and no one that I know considers him a fellow student either. There, does that sum it up?
As far as the “certificate” goes, anyone who goes to a seminar gets a certificate of completion or at least used to. It means nothing.
[QUOTE=WC1277;1176771]All Grados did was go to a seminar or two. That’s it. No continual corrospondence or training. He is wrong to say he comes from Fong Sifu and no one that I know considers him a fellow student either. There, does that sum it up?[/QUOTE]
yes, makes it clearer. thanks.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1176734]Joy didn’t say represent, he said - "IMO he is NOT in the Ho/Fong lineage despite his web site." and “Grados isn’t in the Ho/Fong lineage as he claims on his web site”. So, he is saying Grados didn’t train in that lineage and calling Grados a liar (which he was too pu55y to answer when I asked him directly). Maybe Joy’s right and in that case should prove how he knows Grados never trained in that lineage, or joy is just talking out his a55.
If Grados trained in that lineage for 8 years like he says, then he will ALWAYS be a part of that lineage, even if he stops teaching that method/curriculum. Even being ‘kicked out’ wouldn’t erase those years of training - it would still still part of Sifu Grado’s past/personal lineage.
Example, and I’ll use myself on this: If I quite learning or teaching HFY today (which I am not planning on), it would still ALWAYS still be part of my lineage. Just like my father is part of my lineage.
Yup, he also says he has documentation from Fong. Either I’m missing something, Grado’s is lying or Joy has some big magically history eraser he’s trying to scrub Grado’s past with! So Joy, please clear this up and explain for us all why you think Grados is lying about those 8 years.[/QUOTE]
Great post. Perfectly valid points made here.
[QUOTE=WC1277;1176771]All Grados did was go to a seminar or two. That’s it. No continual corrospondence or training. He is wrong to say he comes from Fong Sifu and no one that I know considers him a fellow student either. There, does that sum it up?[/QUOTE]
I have heard similar stories about Grados. However dispite this I hear that he has quite a few students. Of course this means nothing but he must be doing something right.
Just looked at Grados website and saw a supposed letter of endorsement from Fong Sifu claiming he was a representative of his “New York Wing Chun Gung Fu Headqauarters”.
Fong Sifu has NEVER had a representative of his system, ever, and has even gone as far to post this on his website to counteract claims like Grados has made…
"…[I]- I have no designated representatives. No one speaks for me.
-
I do not endorse Fong’s Wing Chun Instructors or franchised instructors at other schools. The Tucson school is separate and independent from all other schools.
-
Those who use my methods and ideas in teaching can do so freely. I will do what I can to help you. I do not require or expect any royalties or fees. The only condition is that you use your own name and assume all risks and liabilities.
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Instructors from other schools are welcome to attend classes and seminars, however, attendance does not imply endorsement of a particular instructor, school, training method, or martial system…"[/I]
The original enquirer asked a question and he got lots of information. It’s upto him to decide where he wants to go. That should be the end of the matter. He prefers learning from Phil.No real drama needed.
Sifu Fong’s list of certified and recognized instructors are on his website. Grados is not on that list. Sifu Fong’s statement that he has no representatives is also clear on his website.
I have actually met Grados once and briefly rolled with him. No Drama. I wish him well.
Exaggeration in claims is not unknown in advertising..
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1176837]The original enquirer asked a question and he got lots of information. It’s upto him to decide where he wants to go. That should be the end of the matter..[/QUOTE]
Yes I did get plenty of information and than some :). It has been like reading a good novel, reading you guys responses. It had a lot of info, drama, humor and kept me looking for more. Never thought it would draw some many responses.:eek:
All jokes aside thanks for the information.