interesting. I was surely going to follow Mike’s directions, just curious. with what I’ve had before the direction was to use cheap vodka because it was more close to ‘nuetral’.
i wonder what sort of proof levels chinese wine comes in?
'A think 'A need to do an experiment…
Lacy is nothing but a thief, liar and a con
Sifu Parella,
Jim Lacy is nothing but a crook, con and lying thief. His herbs are nothing but made up foolishness.
GM Doo Wai does not use vinegar in his jows. He advocates vodka or rice wine.
Sifu RIchard Wier King of the Ark Wong school has a jow that smells like they have some vinegar in it. Sifu Doc Fai Wong had an iron palm before liniment that used Vinegar as the base, hence I wanted to ask you as your style of Lama is similar in concepts to CLF.
I agree with Mark(Shirkers1), that you use different jows(alcohol) for different formula. I have used whiskey for my iron hand formulas and clear alcohol for my injury jows.
Shen Martial Arts makes some decent pre made jows as well offering whole herbs to make your own. Mario who runs Shen also has one of the better collection of hard to find training material on a cross sections of different kung fu styles/systems. Give him a look see on ebay: search Shen Martial Arts Store. I will write more about his video selections in other threads.
I know Mike Biggie personally, as well as many others who are involved in herbal medicine all around the world. Mike very much like myself has been fortunate enough to acquire the formulae for many different kinds of medicine used within the martial arts. I count my blessings that those who shared these 'recipes" felt I was worthy. Mike has some of the best formulae that I have used personally. Though like Shirkers1 was saying, some can be too hot or too strong for certain people. You need to find one that works for you and not against you.
As Sifu Parella warned us before. One jow mentality means you have limited training in herbal medicine.
Lacy, gray and others have hoodwinked people who have no knowledge that the low level or total made up medicine they sell is the bomb. Stay clear of Brian Gray, Jim Lacy and their toadies. Ive flung enough mud in the past, so if you want the lowdown on those fools email me or pm me off forum.
In Boston,
Dale Dugas
If I can interject in this… wait a minute, I already did!
anyway…
I always understood Dit Da Jow to be:
Tiet Da Jiao
where tiet is teet or “Iron”
Da is “hit or strike”
Jiao is “wine”
or “Iron hit wine”
Never heard the fall part of it before.
also, they do have different names than iron hit wine when they are for superficial muscle ache and have more camphor and less blood stasis release herbs.
Some are for deep penetration and the massage techniques used in application of the stuff differs.
done!
Dit Da Jao Meaning
David, thanks for your post. Although I am an American, I speak Cantonese (My Sifu, Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, unfortunatly did not speak English) and can read and write a bit of Chinese as well. (aww..who am I kidding…my writing sucks!)
Anyway, the first character “DIT” is, I assure you, to Fall. The whole “IRON” thing is just a mistranslation coined many years ago by people who assumed the word was Iron. There are lots a Hom0phones in Cantonese (or any Chinese Language) and if you are not sensitive to the ‘tonality’ of the word or dialect, you can easily mistranslate a word.
Again, just so we are clear, there is no “IRON HIT WINE.” And if someone says there is, they are full of it! As I mentioned in a previous post, the term DIT DA, is actually used do descripe many aspects of Chinese medicine, BEYOND formulas associated with KF training.
I hope this helps!
Types of Alcohol
I dont’ think that the type of acholol matters. My Sifu said that any clear grain alcohol would do. Although sometimes I buy MY JAO (Chinese Rice Wine) by the case, many times I have made batches with Vodka. I haven’t noticed any difference in the potency of the medicine, just the smell.
But as you probably already know, some jows such as iron palm work on the sense of smell as well.. So that being said the “flavor” or “smell” of the alcohol could enhance the jow… but yes they have to be over a certain alcohol content for sure…
I was also told that if you heat the alcohol up before you add it to the batch it doesn’t take as long to mix… After 2-4 months the herbs are used up and can be drained off…
Jao
Although I have been involved in CMA for over 24 years, I have never heard of the “smell” enhancing the Jao.
As far as ‘heating’ the alcohol before you use it,…that is a NO NO that I’m am quite sure of. I think you need to speak to a Chinese Doctor/Herbalist and I’m quite sure that he/she will tell you the same thing. I have also heard of people trying to ‘crush’ the herbs up to bring out their inner ‘essence’. That is also a NO NO.
There are obviously many different ideas (mostly by Americans, mind you) concerning Jao. I don’t think that there are as many variations regarding formulas as people think. I do think that there are a lot of scammers and fakes out there though. Buyer Beware!
ok, i can see how it’s Dit as in Fall and not Teet.
What really interests me is the sheer amount of errors like this simple little misnomer/mistranslation running through Chinese martial arts that brings me to thinking that I am not sure how much of it has much use to us anymore.
Why are these little falsehoods perpetuated?
Why are there so many lies surrounding CMA?
How come there are so many half truths?
and so on?
Fake monks, questionable lineages, techniques that don’t cut it against resisting opponents, egos, saving face and the list goes on.
I enjoy the practice of martial arts. And have many years of practice in. It is frustrating to have to go back and review everything, have it checked by the closest person I can find to competent and then proceed to toss out all the garbage of which there is startlingly…a lot of.
I think I’ll just cut my losses and move fully into mma.
what are you going on about? like you’re having a bad day
All I’m saying is that there is a perpetuation of fallacies in Kungfu like almost no other martial art.
You don’t find nonsense like is found in CMA in lot of other martial arts. I shouldn’t really say “cma”, but just the “classical and traditional martial arts” in general.
It is astounding at how much of it is just pure bs.
To the point where I will not recomend training in traditional martial arts and instead there needs to be a component of rbsd , along with sound stand up, clinch and ground training(mma) or there just isn’t a lot of value in it.
If there is no realistic application work then it just ain’t realistic period.
And the language barrier thing is a cluster-hump all on it’s own.
you should hear yourself speak sometimes. LOL. TTTH
Why is heating the alcohol a no no?
Wouldn’t you say that crushing up “certain” ingrediants allow it to desolve in the mix faster than leaving it in a big hard lump of mineral etc? I don’t think it’s a matter of essence just a matter of time. I could be wrong but maybe that’s why it’s taking 2 years for your jows to cure? Or maybe that’s what your mixes require I don’t know, I have limited knowledge on the subject..
By sense of smell I mean there are certain ingrediants that are in iron palm jows that affect the sense of smell. When you do your internal exorcises and while doing the actual iron palm exorcises you are breathing in that smell. After a while the body remembers that smell and starts the healing process on it’s own before you even apply the actual jow to the hand.
Or in your opinion is this wrong as well?
In your experience with jows, what does the iron palm jow actually do? What are the ingredients in it used for and how does it help in the whole process of practicing iron palm? I know what I think on the matter just wondering what you think..
Jao Info
Hi, I don’t actually know why heating is a NO NO. I do not that I had asked my Sifu many years ago about it and he made it clear to me that heating or crushing the herbs was bad. Again, he was one of the directors of the Chinese Herbal Medicine Association in NY’s Chinatown. He was a master of Chinese medicine and I would not question his experience.
As far as the sense of smell and training? I don’t know, people are really big into aroma therapy too. But what happens if you train it outside? Or if it’s windy? I think that someone might have told you that, that the smell is important, but again, go ask an herbalist. I called up my good friend Dr. Yeh in NY regarding this, and he said that the smell is not important. He taught Doctors in Beijing and is a great doctor. I have worked with him for over 10 years. I take his advice very seriously.
I think that many Americans, with limited exp. in Chinese Medicine, try to either experiment or guess, when it comes to Dit Da Jao. Chinese medicine, the same as Chinese Martial arts, is not really open to as much interpretation as people think. (Obviously, this is my opinion) There are not 50 ways to throw the same punch, kick, whatever. There is usally one right way, and several other ways that people passed on that were wrong. I think the fact that 95% of all KF practitioners think that the DIT is TEET as in Iron, is just a symptom of a bigger problem here.
Sounds like an opportunity for a different thread…
another question…I’m assuming that the herbs used are a one shot deal…there’s no using the herbs for a second batch, right?
This will be the first time I’ve actually brewed my own…
problem with transliteration
Guys,
I have found some formulae using the iron(tit/tieh) character in the name but its was for Tit Za Jeurng Jow Fa/Tieh Sha Zhang Jiu Fa, “Iron Palm liniment recipe”. I think some people have limited ability to read and write Chinese( I have a degree in Japanese but can read and write Hanzi/Kanji).
Maybe some people labelled the formula as Iron(palm) Strike Wine Formula as a label and not an actual name for it?? We could sit for hours and ponder this.
Transliteration is a big problem not only for herbal medicine but for the rest of CMA as well. Is it Choy Lee Fut, Choyh Lei Faht or Choi Li Fat? Dear lord…
Watch out Vasquez will come respond with anothe “pithy” sentence full of wisdom, LOL…
In Boston,
Dale Dugas
Thanks for your input.. well if what I’ve been using works and that’s the way he does it then I’m not going to argue with it.. If someone has something better out there I’ll be happy to try it. As for right now the info and batches I’ve used so far are the best I’ve tried and that’s good enough for me.
Yes, people called it IRON because they associate the medicine with IRON PALM TRAINING. Chinese do not. This has been written about by either uninformed american authors or frauds; the concept of IRON STRIKE WINE. Articles written in magazines and crappy books by people trying to set themselves up as experts.
Frankly, I find it deplorable.
Look, not everyone is going to have access to authentic information. Some people learn from low-level studenst of a teacher with a good reputation. Some people learn from top-disciples of the same teacher. The knowledge and abilities of one vs. the other is a world apart. I have seen more scammy stuff in the Chinese MA world than I have seen good.
Half the Chinese teachers today, who teach in the country, came here when they were in the late teens and early twenties. They studied MA in Hong Kong or China for a few years. Then they come to America. They have slanty eyes so everyone thinks they are good. They teach and grow old. Now they are here for 30 more years, teaching. WOW> So and So Master, has been teaching in the NY/CA area for over 30 years! He must be good. Hey,..I know people who have been driving a car for 30 years, and they still suck at it!
Moral of the story, believe none of what you hear, half of what you read. Do your due dilegence and research what you are told. Find reputable sources and learn from them.
Again, another rant for another tread!
And just remember, getting results is good. Complacency is not. Looking for higher levels and better training will enable you to be your best. Just a thought.
What if you practice inside? Just because your inside or out It doesn’t change the fact that it has that quality to the jow. The fact of the matter is that it’s still there and is an important process to the whole training. There is a right way to train iron palm and many wrong ways. I can guarantee not many people do it the right way, and the jows used are part of that.
Back to the dit da jow questions.. With what you said above, and I’m not trying to attack you at all so don’t get upset. Just wondering with the examples you’ve given before could it be possible that you need to ask yourself the same questions about who you are asking? “no don’t do that, it’s wrong” doesn’t cut it, why is it wrong and why do you use certain things in the jow?
When I asked why something is used I was shown a medical journal as to what that specific herb is used for and why a background on individual items so on and so forth. I was lucky enough to sit in for a weekend and see different batches made and what went into them and why. So to say one is right and one is wrong might be a stretch in this case. When you are dealing with nature and medicine it can be cut and dry why certain herbs etc are used and why. Just some thought.
I understand what you are saying. I however, do not have to understand all aspects of herbal medicine in order to accept certain facts. There are lots of medical (american medicine) facts that we accept today. I’m not sure that I need to understand why we are alergic to certain medicines, I know that it is not good to take them though. I don’t understand everything about my cars, but I rely on my mechanic to give me good advice to maintain them or fix them. I think neither one of us will every become doctors of chinese medicine. Let’s look at the advice of EXPERTS in the field. That’s why we have them. When my doc says don’t eat broken glass, I don’t need to know all the ‘how’ and ‘why’ about what will happen. I trust his advice and his expertise.
As far as the ‘inside outside’ thing goes, I wrote that to give an example. Are we now making Jao that only works when you can smell it? That’s why I mentioned training outside. Would this mean that there are different Jaos for different for both indoor and outdoor training? Or that this Jao works best when you can smell it? If you are training in Iron Palm, the Jao/Medicine must do several things;
It order to make these and many others requirements, work, you must have many different herbs. It is not just the herbs that make a formula more effective, but the particular COMBINATION of the herbs. That is what makes the difference between a good Jao and a great Jao.
Okay I can agree with your points made..
Well the smell thing was actually a direct link to iron palm medicine.. The iron palm jow that I use has a certain ingrediant in it that affects the sense of smell and helps the body recognize that smell with the healing process.
There are also ingrediants in the iron palm jow that clog the pores of the hand to keep the poisens of the lead shot from entering the blood stream (yes lead shot not monk beads or steel). So when you heat the jow up and soak your hand in it before you begin the training, this is where the clogging occurs as well as beginning the healing process. Additionally the iron palm jow is used for injuries that the body knows is going to happen and you are prepared for through chi kung etc, where as the bruise jow is for injuries that the body doesn’t know is going to be inflicted apon it.