[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1138879
One can have alternative methods of fighting, but it is in my opinion that one should not mix his systems. Using incorperated techniques into Wing Chun will alter it’s true effectiveness. Mix good and bad and you get mediocre. I am not opposed to shifting from Wing Chun to Jiujitsu when it would better serve, but I do not mix the techniques because each system has it’s own principals and concepts which must be adhered to.[/QUOTE]
I respect your wing chun and experience but you dont do Ip man wing chun. Both in Foshan and to selected students in HK, IP Man showed the use of the phoenix eye with the proper formation.Details matter.. It is powerful and penetrating when used properly and it is done with a wing chun body structure.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1138881]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I respect your wing chun and experience but you dont do Ip man wing chun. Both in Foshan and to selected students in HK, IP Man showed the use of the phoenix eye with the proper formation.Details matter.. It is powerful and penetrating when used properly and it is done with a wing chun body structure.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Why then do so many WC lineage people not believe in the uppercut and hooks?
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1138890]----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe they didn’t learn them..Ip man did not turn out students with cookie cutters.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
What about those who sifus have the techniques in their forms..
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1138879]I think that most styles of Wing Chun today might have incorporated a number of different weapons into themselves. I do not use them mostly because of their being less efficient for me. A gouge can hurt, but it only does local damage on impact, and in most cases the pain is minimalized because of adrenaline. A simply flat palm slap will transfer far more energy into an impact because of the more extensive contact area. It might not cause the distruction of tissue that the gouge will, but it has a greater effect upon the opponent and can stun or even knock him out. That is why I never considered incorperating the pheonix eye. The ginger fist is only really effective if used in a particular manner, and the certainty of self injury is such that it is not a reasonable option. Just an opinion, but based on what I know to be the facts.
One can have alternative methods of fighting, but it is in my opinion that one should not mix his systems. Using incorperated techniques into Wing Chun will alter it’s true effectiveness. Mix good and bad and you get mediocre. I am not opposed to shifting from Wing Chun to Jiujitsu when it would better serve, but I do not mix the techniques because each system has it’s own principals and concepts which must be adhered to.[/QUOTE]
An eye gouge can disable someone for good, in the same way as a Phoenix Eye strike to the eye ball. Of course these are to be used in exterem circumstances and not some casual fight.
The techniques contained in the Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun that I practice are WC techniques as far as this lineage is concerned. So, the Phoenix Eye; the Dragon Fist; the Tiger Claw, as well as other uncommon to mainstream WC, are studied. There is also an extensive study of Chin-na and even ground fighting, and of course, Iron skills.
Generally, to complete the curriculum of this lineage takes between 6 to 8 years.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1138916]An eye gouge can disable someone for good, in the same way as a Phoenix Eye strike to the eye ball. Of course these are to be used in exterem circumstances and not some casual fight.
The techniques contained in the Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun that I practice are WC techniques as far as this lineage is concerned. So, the Phoenix Eye; the Dragon Fist; the Tiger Claw, as well as other uncommon to mainstream WC, are studied. There is also an extensive study of Chin-na and even ground fighting, and of course, Iron skills.
Generally, to complete the curriculum of this lineage takes between 6 to 8 years. :)[/QUOTE]
I guess since my dad came from Canton his Wing Chun is mainland? Either way, I asked about such things, but self care is as important as preventing someone else from hurting you. A pheonix eye was called something else, but I was told that it could not bare the same power and the finger knuckles were subject to injury if struck against hard bone by accident. I can not apply as much power behind the strike as I can with the proper fist. And as for the ginger fist, I have personally seen the cut injuries that occur when it is used extensively.
I was called down many times for doing hooks. A hook is just that. It hooks around, but this shortens it’s range. A curled arm is shorter than a straight out arm. Also, it can only be as strong as the arm itself and the speed in which it moves. It seriously limits your reach and it seriously limits the power you can put into it. Wing Chun is about efficiency and applying your greatest power. Anything short of that is poor in efficiency. A hook comes from the outside and across.
Also, a Wing Chun punch does not have to come from the heart. It can come straight off the shoulder and be just as powerful. An uppercut can be just as effective as it usually follows directly up the center line, but a hook does not.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1138989] Also, it can only be as strong as the arm itself and the speed in which it moves. It seriously limits your reach and it seriously limits the power you can put into it. [/QUOTE]
For the record, I still train Ving Tsun as my primary art and devote the most time to it (dont want it to seem like im here to talk against Ving Tsun or promote any other art), although I have been boxing for about 3 months (yea i know, its not long), and I gotta say, I dont think this is true about the hook. It’s most certainly not just “as strong as the arm itself.” The hips and legs have a huge role in the power of the hook. A hook thrown as “the arm swinging by itself” would be, at least from what i learned, terrible technique and execution of the hook.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1138879]I think that most styles of Wing Chun today might have incorporated a number of different weapons into themselves. I do not use them mostly because of their being less efficient for me. A gouge can hurt, but it only does local damage on impact, and in most cases the pain is minimalized because of adrenaline. A simply flat palm slap will transfer far more energy into an impact because of the more extensive contact area. It might not cause the distruction of tissue that the gouge will, but it has a greater effect upon the opponent and can stun or even knock him out. That is why I never considered incorperating the pheonix eye. The ginger fist is only really effective if used in a particular manner, and the certainty of self injury is such that it is not a reasonable option. Just an opinion, but based on what I know to be the facts.
One can have alternative methods of fighting, but it is in my opinion that one should not mix his systems. Using incorperated techniques into Wing Chun will alter it’s true effectiveness. Mix good and bad and you get mediocre. I am not opposed to shifting from Wing Chun to Jiujitsu when it would better serve, but I do not mix the techniques because each system has it’s own principals and concepts which must be adhered to.[/QUOTE]
Although my own lineage doesn’t train phoenix eye or ginger fist, they are original Wing Chun techniques reffered to in the texts and Kuit kuen. Ip Man refined the art alot, especially during the 50’s so those who learned earlier and didn’t change or those of non Ip Man lineage will still have them.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1138676]Im not closing my mind to options, but the mechanics of a phoenix eye just seem the complete opposite to the mindless ways we train to execute in fights. Just hitting with sufficient force in our ways takes a lot of focus…then asking a guy in lightning speeds to change and think …oh I will hit the temple next time he comes at me with a phoenix knuckle …can you see my point ?
Sure guys will show isolated nerve shots and its all good but its in an environment of friends , no pressure to survive the moment without anytime to think.
Under stress our body goes under adrenalin effects and things can get weird pretty quick, your heart rate pounds, your mouth is dry your ass contracts as your nuts disappear and you havent even had the fight yet :D:D:D
Nothing personal about the obtuse remark, I should have clarified myself .[/QUOTE]
All fair comments and having been in more “situations” than I care to admit I share your concern about fine motor skills or pre planning. As i say i don’t personally train phoenix eye or ginger fist as i think I have enough options with punches, palms, spade hands, fak sau / mun sau and fingers and thumbs, but I can also see where they might be useful. For example I’ve often changed a palm strike into a thumb to the eye or fingers into the eyes after landing the original shot (using BJ energy but I don’t really think about it at the time). Likewise I’ve often ended up with my hand in such a place as the nearest target is the throat and fak sau / mun sau (its often half and half because of where the hand starts and the crappiness of technique on such occassions) just pops out. In a similar way I could see how phoenix eye or ginger fist could have application from contact when the distance to the target is short and there is very little chance of missing. Both techniques allow force to be delivered using a smaller surface area hence creating greater pressure for the same force and an increased liklihood of causing damage. They would however have to be trained to the same extent as other techniques to make them come out naturally when under pressure.
[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1138677]No insult - just my opinion about this kind of theories!
No. There’s a huge difference from what a boxer does to what is being advocated here: A boxer resorts to the same tool (his good old punch) no matter what angle, distance, position, or timing dealt with. He targets larger areas with the same tool and it will do damage no matter whether he got you anywhere on the head or anywhere on the body. He keeps it simple (Ving Tsun!) and does not have to think first about whether to cross his fingers in a certain way before striking, nor is he looking continuously for that small spot on the inside of your left forearm…[/QUOTE]
Actually I beg to differ. Saying a boxer resorts to the same weapon regardless of angle is simply not true. Jab, cross, uppercut, hook are all fundamentally different. Add in the distance and targetting and an upper cut to teh jaw of an opponent is very different in angle and line of power to the same shot done to the solar plexus. A hook to the temple has very different angles, elbow positions and lines of force to a hook done to the floating rib or liver. Good boxers don’t just aim at big areas and hit willy nilly. My old boxing coach could hit my floating rib and solar plexus at will with pin point accuracy.
I totally agree that aiming for tiny “pressure points” or spots on the inside of the arm as you refer to them, from no contact is utter nonesense, but the ability to see a target and select the best weapon for the job instinctively comes with training and is what we all do when we flow from punches to elbows or choose palms or fak, and a good boxer does when in close he selects the uppercut instead of the jab.
Although my lineage doesn’t use them, I’m not inclined to dismiss the tools just because the way some people choose to employ them is flawed.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1139228]Unless somebody here can explain the origin of these refined methods, I think we’re all wasting our time either trying to justify them or not! :eek:
Why are they in Wing Chun at all?[/QUOTE]
Spencer, if you check the original kuit kuen etc there is reference to both the ginger fist and phoenix eye fist so they were clearly in the system at some point.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1139230]Spencer, if you check the original kuit kuen etc there is reference to both the ginger fist and phoenix eye fist so they were clearly in the system at some point.[/QUOTE]
You’re right, they are represented in the Kuen Kuit, but why? Where does this hand structure originate and how do we actually drill it’s use without killing our students??!!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1139236]You’re right, they are represented in the Kuen Kuit, but why? Where does this hand structure originate and how do we actually drill it’s use without killing our students??!! ;)[/QUOTE]
I think both fists can be seen in other Chinese martial arts as well. The phoenix eye seems like an important tool in Southern Praying Mantis (although it’d probably be best if a practitioner could confirm this for us) and the ginger is present in Choy Lee fut. Not sure if this is true for all the families though.
As for how it’s trained, I’d say through a lot of form/technique training, drills, and conditioning work. Similar to how we’d train energies like finger jabs or any technique that would cause too much damage if done the optimal way (attacking soft tissue, vital points) but not enough damage if just applied to any part of the body (ex: like finger jabbing a person in a knee).
That’s my take on it, although I’m sure there are many differences in opinion as I’ve met others who actually even have different ways of forming fists such as the phoenix eye. The variations were mostly based around the placement of the thumb. For example, the way I train, the thumb is kept bent about 90 degrees at the middle joint (if that makes sense, sounds weird explaining it like that) behind the index finger while some people I’ve met had it so that the thumb was bent so that the tip of the thumb was tucked into the “pocket” formed on top of the index finger as a result of the way that it is held in the phoenix eye. This gives them a second striking point that is formed by the middle joint in the thumb sticking up (although both methods have more than 1 striking point from what I’ve learned). Now that i’ve typed this out i realize that it probably sounds strange. so i just took pictures of my own hand, sorry if it looks strange, never really took pictures of my fist in such a manner before lol.
How I train my phoenix eye:
How some friends have trained their phoenix eye:
Some may bring up things about which fist is more likely to break under impact, but personally and from my own experience I’d say that it’s all dependent on the way one trains and uses the technique, and that can vary a lot.
[QUOTE=EternalSpring;1139240]How some friends have trained their phoenix eye:
Some may bring up things about which fist is more likely to break under impact, but personally and from my own experience I’d say that it’s all dependent on the way one trains and uses the technique, and that can vary a lot.[/QUOTE]
I’ve used this one when training, but as I have said before, I think there’s too much of risk of damaging the knuckle.
That being said, it may just depend on conditioning because I can hit with a regular fist and not being injured where those who don’t condition it at all.
[QUOTE=EternalSpring;1139240]I think both fists can be seen in other Chinese martial arts as well. The phoenix eye seems like an important tool in Southern Praying Mantis (although it’d probably be best if a practitioner could confirm this for us) and the ginger is present in Choy Lee fut. Not sure if this is true for all the families though.
As for how it’s trained, I’d say through a lot of form/technique training, drills, and conditioning work. Similar to how we’d train energies like finger jabs or any technique that would cause too much damage if done the optimal way (attacking soft tissue, vital points) but not enough damage if just applied to any part of the body (ex: like finger jabbing a person in a knee).
That’s my take on it, although I’m sure there are many differences in opinion as I’ve met others who actually even have different ways of forming fists such as the phoenix eye. The variations were mostly based around the placement of the thumb. For example, the way I train, the thumb is kept bent about 90 degrees at the middle joint (if that makes sense, sounds weird explaining it like that) behind the index finger while some people I’ve met had it so that the thumb was bent so that the tip of the thumb was tucked into the “pocket” formed on top of the index finger as a result of the way that it is held in the phoenix eye. This gives them a second striking point that is formed by the middle joint in the thumb sticking up (although both methods have more than 1 striking point from what I’ve learned). Now that i’ve typed this out i realize that it probably sounds strange. so i just took pictures of my own hand, sorry if it looks strange, never really took pictures of my fist in such a manner before lol.
How I train my phoenix eye:
How some friends have trained their phoenix eye:
Some may bring up things about which fist is more likely to break under impact, but personally and from my own experience I’d say that it’s all dependent on the way one trains and uses the technique, and that can vary a lot.[/QUOTE]
I do the phoenix eye but my formation is not the same as the two pics that are posted.
And the leopard fist and my wing chun ginger fist are not the same. the devil in the details.
I do the phoenix eye but my formation is not the same as the two pics that are posted.
And the leopard fist and my wing chun ginger fist are not the same. the devil in the details.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Nice, so that’s even more variation out there (which is a good thing imo, more perspectives and energies to learn about)! TBH, im wondering if my phoenix eye is complete because while i train it like that, my sifu refers to it sometimes as the phoenix eye and sometimes as “leeng kuen (training fist).” I guess I’ll find out over time if the way I do it is just a stage in the process of training it.
And yea, the way I learned ginger fist (at least as of now) is also different enough that I didn’t even want to risk taking a picture of that one lol. Plus that fist is still fairly new to me.
The bootom pic needs a bit of explaining ( most Lama guys use that configuration by the way, because of the option of striking with the thumb joint).
The thumb is placed on top of the index finger and it presses down against the joint, locking the finger ina very tight configuration, arguably tighter than the typical one.
I use this formation.
You also need to remember that the striking surface of the PE fist is NOT the knuckle joint (tip) but just below it on the actual 2nd bone from the tip.
and you havent even had the fight yet :D:D:D
