Do you belive if you did forms with weights it would be the only strength training one would need?
I actually don’t think its a good way to train strength at all. For example punching force, your punch’s force should be outward towards your opponent, not downward which weight would produce. I also don’t believe that would be good for your joints, but this is coming from a guy that grapples, and that certainlyl isn’t good for the joints.
When training forms I do it to change things up and to add resistence training. Training with heavy weapons is also a good change to training with normal weapons. I think it is important not to get in a lull with any kind of training and adding a change up is good. The thing you have to be careful with when adding weights when you train is to not go too fast and be careful on your kicks. It is better to go at a slower pace initially and build on it.
[QUOTE=MARTIALSTUDANT;701889]Do you belive if you did forms with weights it would be the only strength training one would need?[/QUOTE]
No. I don’t think so.
Let’s say that you got yourself a weight vest, some wrist and ankle weights.
If you do your forms very slowly and focus on stances, you will see some minimal strength, flexibility and endurance gains.
BUT by no means would it be the only strength training one would need.
Training like this would not address increased strength, power or speed.
I would recommend some other kind of resistance training to develop the above.
I just read the book “Never Gymless” by Ross Enamait. http://www.rosstraining.com/
It’s a great book that shows many different versions of body weight exercises to develop strength, endurance and speed.
Take a look at some of the videos on Ross’ site. Pretty amazing stuff. Imagine a pushup so powerful and explosive that you can clap in front of you, behind your back and back in front of you again before landing. :eek:
No!!! It is known that when you try to imitate a sporting movement with weight, you will end up interfering with the proper coordination of that movement. If the motor patterns are too close, they will overlap and interfere with one another.
[QUOTE=William;701951]No!!! It is known that when you try to imitate a sporting movement with weight, you will end up interfering with the proper coordination of that movement. If the motor patterns are too close, they will overlap and interfere with one another.[/QUOTE]
really? i was going to say that if you went slowly to spare your joints i could see no harm, but i’ve never heard of this. do you have any resources.?
I think it comes down to the individual. If it works for you do it if not don’t. I haven’t had any problems and find it beneficial, so does has my sifu and some of my other hing dai. I wouldn’t recommend it for everyday practice but like I said earlier to mix it into your training and you will see what I mean.
[QUOTE=William;701951]No!!! It is known that when you try to imitate a sporting movement with weight, you will end up interfering with the proper coordination of that movement. If the motor patterns are too close, they will overlap and interfere with one another.[/QUOTE]
That’s not 100% true. many baseball players swing a weighted bat to improve their bat speed.
Come to think of it, I’ve heard many times that using ankle and wrist weights while doing an activity could hurt your joints but I’ve never actually heard of anyone ever getting hurt.
Is this possibly a myth?
[QUOTE=Chief Fox;701989]That’s not 100% true. many baseball players swing a weighted bat to improve their bat speed.
Come to think of it, I’ve heard many times that using ankle and wrist weights while doing an activity could hurt your joints but I’ve never actually heard of anyone ever getting hurt.
Is this possibly a myth?[/QUOTE]
I’m not an expert, but I feel it’s a myth. Just take time out to stretch and make sure you do things right. It reminds me of hand conditioning. So many people are quick to say that makiwara training, iron palm, etc causes problems. However, people who are well conditioned from such methods have no problems. It’s all about doing it the correct way.
[QUOTE=GunnedDownAtrocity;701956]really? i was going to say that if you went slowly to spare your joints i could see no harm, but i’ve never heard of this. do you have any resources.?[/QUOTE]
Sure.
These articles talk briefly about it.
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=05-120-feature
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-094-feature
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/specificityapplications.php
It has been written about elsewhere as well. Science and Practice of Strength Training touches on it. I’m pretty sure Mel Siff has dissected it as well in Supertraining.
There have also been plenty of studies showing that adding resistance to a sporting movement alters kinematics of the movement. You do not want this. Its the whole motor learning deal, and that is why it is best to get strong and explosive in the weightroom and then learn to apply that strength in practice.
This is not to say that adding resistance will absolutely and positively cause harm!! It is also a matter of how much, and how the resistance is applied. As well, it is a matter of degree. Very little is absolute.
Hope this helps.
sweet … i like tnation articles. ill read thursday or saturday at work.
[QUOTE=Chief Fox;701989]That’s not 100% true. many baseball players swing a weighted bat to improve their bat speed.
Come to think of it, I’ve heard many times that using ankle and wrist weights while doing an activity could hurt your joints but I’ve never actually heard of anyone ever getting hurt.
Is this possibly a myth?[/QUOTE]
I’ve hurt my knee joint kicking with weights on, which is why I’ll do weighted knee strikes now, but not other types of kicks. The injury wasn’t serious but did hurt for a few weeks.
[QUOTE=Chief Fox;701989]That’s not 100% true. many baseball players swing a weighted bat to improve their bat speed.
Come to think of it, I’ve heard many times that using ankle and wrist weights while doing an activity could hurt your joints but I’ve never actually heard of anyone ever getting hurt.
Is this possibly a myth?[/QUOTE]
I know people that have hurt themselves. I know several tkd guys that used to do it.
I don’t think the baseball bat training is the same. When swinging a bat, it’s hard to hyperextend a joint. Now, if you held the weighted bat and were swinging in a backfist motion, you could easily hyperextend.
[QUOTE=bodhitree;702288]I’ve hurt my knee joint kicking with weights on, which is why I’ll do weighted knee strikes now, but not other types of kicks. The injury wasn’t serious but did hurt for a few weeks.[/QUOTE]
Ok, that’s one.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;702327]I know people that have hurt themselves. I know several tkd guys that used to do it.
I don’t think the baseball bat training is the same. When swinging a bat, it’s hard to hyperextend a joint. Now, if you held the weighted bat and were swinging in a backfist motion, you could easily hyperextend.[/QUOTE]
Actually there is a back fist motion in the swinging of a bat. If you swing right handed then your left hand makes a back fist motion.
I understand that they are not exactly the same motion but I was addressing William’s point about how any sports motion with weight added will interfere with the proper coordination. In my original post I was stating that this wasn’t 100% true.
With the quotes above, it’s obvious that some people have gotten hurt while training with ankle weights.
Now I still don’t believe that the use of ankle weights is bad. But maybe they’re just bad if used incorectly or in only some motions.
But then again, any fitness/weight equipment could be harmful if used incorrectly.
Training for strength and training for perfection of motion can be done at the same time, but they’re gonna fuzz on each other a bit, depending on your amounts of skill and strength.
I’ve found it alot better to wear body weights during a body weight excercise then when doing a form. Vests during pushups, ankle weights during leg lifts, etc. That way, you’re getting your body used to dealing with more then it’s own weight, but it’s not having to compensate for any of the shifting of the weights, or any of the stress that might build up on you.
In my opinion, if you really feel the need to train your strength during a form, I’d do it in full tension, trying to keep it for as long as possible throughout the movements, and then as you get used to it, increasing the overall tension in your body. Just don’t strain so hard your monkey steals it’s own peaches. 
[QUOTE=Chief Fox;702345]Ok, that’s one.
Actually there is a back fist motion in the swinging of a bat. If you swing right handed then your left hand makes a back fist motion.
I understand that they are not exactly the same motion but I was addressing William’s point about how any sports motion with weight added will interfere with the proper coordination. In my original post I was stating that this wasn’t 100% true.
With the quotes above, it’s obvious that some people have gotten hurt while training with ankle weights.
Now I still don’t believe that the use of ankle weights is bad. But maybe they’re just bad if used incorectly or in only some motions.
But then again, any fitness/weight equipment could be harmful if used incorrectly.[/QUOTE]
the backfist motion is not a stopping point - if you follow through, you will rotate the arm and continue the swing. Now, if you stop at that motion, sure, you could cause a problem.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;702393]the backfist motion is not a stopping point - if you follow through, you will rotate the arm and continue the swing. Now, if you stop at that motion, sure, you could cause a problem.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, I understand that they are not the exact same motion.
And also, like I said, any fitness/weight equipment could be harmful if used incorrectly.
I’ve seen people slightly hyper extend their knee simply by throwing a careless, sloppy front snap kick with no weights.
I think the people getting hurt with this equipment are using it improperly. All resistance equipment should be used with control and proper form. The control reduces the chance of injury.
[QUOTE=Chief Fox;702403]Like I said, I understand that they are not the exact same motion.
And also, like I said, any fitness/weight equipment could be harmful if used incorrectly.
I’ve seen people slightly hyper extend their knee simply by throwing a careless, sloppy front snap kick with no weights.
I think the people getting hurt with this equipment are using it improperly. All resistance equipment should be used with control and proper form. The control reduces the chance of injury.[/QUOTE]
agreed - but at the same time, that’s why it’s a bad idea training wise. Now we’re getting back into what william was talking about. punching really slow with heavy weight really isn’t helping your punch at all - wrong speed, bad timing, etc. you’re not training at the speed your body will be performing. just like isometrics, which work at the specific point you are holding the posture. you would be better off just hitting a heavy bag then punching slowly with heavy weight.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;702413]agreed - but at the same time, that’s why it’s a bad idea training wise. Now we’re getting back into what william was talking about. punching really slow with heavy weight really isn’t helping your punch at all - wrong speed, bad timing, etc. you’re not training at the speed your body will be performing. just like isometrics, which work at the specific point you are holding the posture. you would be better off just hitting a heavy bag then punching slowly with heavy weight.[/QUOTE]
Punching in a controlled manner with resistance develops strength and endurance through a range of motion. Notice how I didn’t put “speed or quickness” in there.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m in no way saying this is the best or only way to do this but it could be an important part of a well rounded routine that includes bag work, shadow boxing and even isometrics.
Also, I just read Ross Enamait’s book (Never Gymless). In it, he discusses isometrics in detail. He says that studies show that isometrics can increase strength up to 20° to either side of the point being worked through a range of motion. For this reason he recommends doing isometrics at a few points through your range of motion. he doesn’t say that it’s a huge part of your routine, but he does include it.
One last thing, let’s apply your comment about isometrics to the horse stance. Which is after all an isometric hold. Are you saying that the horse stance only increases strength, flexibility and endurance at the position being held? Or does holding a horse stance contribute to overall leg strength?
[QUOTE=Chief Fox;702430]Punching in a controlled manner with resistance develops strength and endurance through a range of motion. Notice how I didn’t put “speed or quickness” in there.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m in no way saying this is the best or only way to do this but it could be an important part of a well rounded routine that includes bag work, shadow boxing and even isometrics.[/quote]
eh… I think you’re reaching on that one. I definitely wouldn’t do it as part of a regimen, but we each have our preferences.
Also, I just read Ross Enamait’s book (Never Gymless). In it, he discusses isometrics in detail. He says that studies show that isometrics can increase strength up to 20° to either side of the point being worked through a range of motion. For this reason he recommends doing isometrics at a few points through your range of motion. he doesn’t say that it’s a huge part of your routine, but he does include it.
doing it at a few points and not just one, as typically seen, makes sense. you are working multiple ranges of motion. Now, from a specificity standpoint, even in this manner they wouldn’t be used in fight training. If I’m not mistaken, he doesn’t mention them in the fight training exercises in his book The Complete Boxer’s Workout, either - I gotta check on that though. The 20 degree thing is interesting, I hadn’t heard that.
One last thing, let’s apply your comment about isometrics to the horse stance. Which is after all an isometric hold. Are you saying that the horse stance only increases strength, flexibility and endurance at the position being held? Or does holding a horse stance contribute to overall leg strength?
yeah, that’s pretty much what I’m saying. take someone and only let them do horse stance training. take the same person after several months and put them in a scissors (twisted horse) stance. I’m willing to bet his twisted horse will be not be as strong as his horse - he hasn’t been holding that same position for months, as he was only doing ma bu. A static posture won’t strengthen throughout full ranges of motion.