Forget the History, Forget the Politics

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;899531]
When you’ve gone out and tested your training in all the venues I I have done with mine, then you can judge whether or not my WC training was somehow inferior compared to other WC training methods. Until that point, you are just making clueless assumptions and talking out your a$$.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am totally making assumptions about your WC training. I don’t know if they are completely clueless as they are somewhat based on your posts, but OK. It’s just my impression that there’s a lot more better stuff out there available in wing chun than what you experienced in wing chun. But it’s just an impression as I know next to nothing about your WC training background.

Your BJJ experience is a more known quantity under Caique, as is your Dog Bros. and small show experience - all of which gives you cred speaking on the topic of MMA training, aliveness weapons, and BJJ.

So anyway not to focus on individuals any suggestions from your experience on specific training methods a WC school should implement to bring it into what would be effective in today’s environment?

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[QUOTE=m1k3;899534]That could be me except that it is BJJ only. As for the better stuff in wing chun, I’m going to assume it’s there. That being the case why is the good stuff given out in tiny little quantities? I learned significantly more useful stuff in my 1st 6 months of BJJ than I did in wing chun. :([/QUOTE]

You know, I don’t know why it develops slower. Good stuff in tiny little quantities may be all that can be digested at one sitting or something. But I certainly have heard from people a whole lot better than me in WC that it takes longer to develop skill in WC. I like both actually - BJJ and WC. I don’t want WC to become obsolete - I’ve learned awesome things in it.

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You develop faster in grappling systems because it is more natural and easier to get “good” at, probably because you can go all out from almost the very beginning.
That and no one is trying to smash your face in.

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[QUOTE=Wayfaring;899554]You know, I don’t know why it develops slower. Good stuff in tiny little quantities may be all that can be digested at one sitting or something. But I certainly have heard from people a whole lot better than me in WC that it takes longer to develop skill in WC. I like both actually - BJJ and WC. I don’t want WC to become obsolete - I’ve learned awesome things in it.[/QUOTE]

I’ve come to realize that learning what WC/VT has to offer is complex and very hard (probably why it is not meant to be learned by the masses, and if so, then one has to modify it to make it easier to absorb, which leads to the problems we have today in the art), but the application of it is much simplier. It’s a very precise art form, with most everything not very natural for people to learn (elbows in, facing, centerling aim and awareness, etc…). Also the ideas and concepts it promotes and teaches us are very different from what people think about regarding combat and the such, so there is sometimes a problem with people understanding exactly what they are learning and why. People also become bored with the repeating of drills, with the idea of absorbing the subtle attributes the art teaches us. Plus, skill in striking IMO is harder to develop and apply than skill in grappling, since in striking, one has a harder time controlling an opponent since he has more mobility and access to his tools. When grappling with someone, and taking them down takes away their mobility and what they can do to counter you, unless of course they have the same skills you do in that area.

James

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;899559]You develop faster in grappling systems because it is more natural and easier to get “good” at, probably because you can go all out from almost the very beginning.
That and no one is trying to smash your face in.[/QUOTE]

Couldn’t agree more:)

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LOL @ grappling being more easily learned than striking. That is a completely false statement.

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[QUOTE=golgo;899512]What are your thoughts on the yearly Lei Tai competition in Hunt Valley, MD (that Master Redmond has posted videos of)? I have said before that I am very new to WC (less than 3 months), but I have set this as a goal for myself (to compete next summer). That may be an unrealistic goal, but I am always in favor of setting my goals too high rather than too low.

Do they have these types of competitions where you are?[/QUOTE]

***THAT’S a good one to go, yeah. No, these types of events don’t exist here in NYC to my knowledge.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;899515]“I AGREE, but I would add that the whole “politics” of wing chun (which almost always includes a link to somebody’s “version” of history)…the politics of it all contributes greatly to the lack of proper training methods.”

This whole thread was founded on politics and political views (not to mention personal differences). It was a response to another thread regarding a seminar on history. To continue to complain about politics, other people’s training methods that differ from our own, and how it is ‘ruining WC’ is no better (probably worse), and only promotes more politics.
Why not let personal differences go (and politics) and just talk about the training methods & concepts of WC and stop mixing the two? It would be a good step in trying to move atoward a more productive thread..[/QUOTE]

***YOU’RE the one who’s making this personal, JP…

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“The point is-whether WING CHUN fighters would be interested in training this way. Thus-becoming Wing Chun/MMA fighters, not the other way around.
The idea is to bring the modern,current training methodology to TCMA schools.
this has nothing to do with technique. It has to do with trainig and the willingness of the teachers to implement that training in their respective schools.”

***Spot on, Ten Tigers…

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;899573]LOL @ grappling being more easily learned than striking. That is a completely false statement.[/QUOTE]

Not really, think about it.
We grapple as kids, sure its hardly scientific or trained.
Its just more natural.
Heck Behring said as much in a seminar over here once, Fabiano told me the same thing.
Most grapplers would agree that learning to grapple is more natural, hence easier, than learning to drive your fist into someones vitals.
Not sure why you would think otherwise to be truthful.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;899573]LOL @ grappling being more easily learned than striking. That is a completely false statement.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone said anything about one being easier or harder to “Learn”. Movement is movement, if one has a easy time learning movement then it shouldn’t matter if it is from the stand up POV or grappling POV. The thing is the skills developed and then applied are different. It’s easier IMO to apply grappling, like sanjoro mentioned, because it is more natural to clinch and grab/hold on to someone than to actually set them up and KO them with skill. Of course anything learned in MA to a high level of skill is not “easy”. Nothing is easy if you want to be good at it.

James

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[QUOTE=sihing;899588]I don’t think anyone said anything about one being easier or harder to “Learn”. Movement is movement, if one has a easy time learning movement then it shouldn’t matter if it is from the stand up POV or grappling POV. The thing is the skills developed and then applied are different. It’s easier IMO to apply grappling, like sanjoro mentioned, because it is more natural to clinch and grab/hold on to someone than to actually set them up and KO them with skill. Of course anything learned in MA to a high level of skill is not “easy”. Nothing is easy if you want to be good at it.[/QUOTE]

How much competitive grappling have you done? How many grapplers have you trained? None? Yet, you think you are qualified to speculate on grappling being easier?

Here’s a news flash for you. If anything, striking is easier to learn.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;899592]How much competitive grappling have you done? How many grapplers have you trained? None? Yet, you think you are qualified to speculate on grappling being easier?

Here’s a news flash for you. If anything, striking is easier to learn.[/QUOTE]

Really?
Hmmm, well, I don’t know…truthfully…
I mean, take most guys that have been grappling 1 year and take most that have been striking one year, I think the grappler will have a better grasp of grappling than the strikers of striking.

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;899582]***YOU’RE the one who’s making this personal, JP…[/QUOTE]

not really, just pointing out the obvious. I notice where all the politics talk is coming from and what sparked it all and who’s also complaining the most about it. Kinda the pot calling the kettle black imo. nothing personal about it, I’m just suggesting we turn the heat off on that subject.. it’s really pointless

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The thrust of what I’ve been saying on this thread is not directed at any one, or two, or even a dozen different wing chun lineages in particular, JP…

It’s just been my experience and my observation through all these years in wing chun (35 years now, to be exact), that the politics more often than not does get in the way of modernizing the training methods…

and secondly, said politics is almost always connected to somebody’s preferred version of alleged wing chun history.

Hence the theme of the thread: forget the history, forget the politics - and just concentrate on the TRAINING.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;899592]Here’s a news flash for you. If anything, striking is easier to learn.[/QUOTE]

I think the term ‘striking’ has to be qualified with this statement. Standing and trading punches with some covering up (as seen in many MMA/UFC fights) is pretty easy to learn. Being able to shut someone down, control thier COG and strike them while at the same time taking away thier ability to effectively strike in return is something else entirely. And it’s a lot harder to learn IMO.
So it really depends the type of striking one is talking about.

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[QUOTE=JPinAZ;899598]I think the term ‘striking’ has to be qualified with this statement. Standing and trading punches with some covering up (as seen in many MMA/UFC fights) is pretty easy to learn. Being able to shut someone down, control thier COG and strike them while at the same time taking away thier ability to effectively strike in return is something else entirely. And it’s a lot harder to learn IMO.
So it really depends the type of striking one is talking about.[/QUOTE]

Ask the average person to put you in a head lock ( everyone knows what it is) and they will do a half assed one that would actually work on someone with no training.
Ask them to throw their best punch and it will suck ass.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;899593]Really?
Hmmm, well, I don’t know…truthfully…
I mean, take most guys that have been grappling 1 year and take most that have been striking one year, I think the grappler will have a better grasp of grappling than the strikers of striking.[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding me? Striking has one dimension, standing… and all the principles are pretty much the same.

Grappling has two dimensions, both standing and on the ground. To complicate matters further, the principles are contradictory from one position to the other… create space on the bottom inferior positions, but shut it down when you are in danger of submission; however, in the bottom guard position, shut down space when working submissions, but open it when in danger of being passed; shut down space from the top; create angles from the guard, but shut them down inside the guard; shut down angles from the bottom non-guard positions, but create them from the top.

Throw in the fact that there are literally thousands of different techniques to remember for these positions and their contradictory principles and grappling is significantly harder to learn.

The fact is that grappling is more suited to beating and dominating an individual opponent, which is why it is more effective sooner than is striking. It is not easier to learn, however.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;899599]Ask the average person to put you in a head lock ( everyone knows what it is) and they will do a half assed one that would actually work on someone with no training.
Ask them to throw their best punch and it will suck ass.[/QUOTE]

That has everything to do with grappling being a more effective method of controlling someone and nothing to do with it being easier to learn.

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I have a perspective on this, and it goes right the heart of the training issue question that’s also being discussed on this thread:

I teach wing chun and I teach catch (submission) wrestling…and I’ve noticed that most people pick up the wrestling quicker, ie.- they’re better able to actually use what they’re learning in a shorter amount of time than is the case with the wing chun…

because in wrestling class, you learn, you drill, you compete…

you learn, you drill, you compete…

In other words, there’s a built-in mechanism (and I suspect the same is true with other grappling arts as well) wherein you can “compete” (roll) very frequently, ie. virtually every class, using some limited amount of techniques and principles very soon after learning the moves. And of course the idea is to get to the point relativey quickly wherein you’re rolling competitively using a great deal of different principles, strategies, and techniques.

I guess what I’m saying is that there is a “sparring” mechanism (rolling) that’s introduced into grappling very quickly - as opposed to having to spend many months (possibly a year or two, or three?) learning wing chun forms, chi sao, drills, etc…

before you actually spar competitively.

And this is an unfortunate part of what has been many appoaches to wing chun, imo. I think many schools of wing chun have spent inordinate amounts of time on forms, drills, chi sao, and wooden dummy before doing any serious sparring on a frequent basis.

Another thing to consider here is the fact that you can “tap out” in submission grappling; whereas in sparring it can become an artform in itself trying to teach people how to spar with contact (including headshots and kicks) with some power.

It would seem that it’s harder to modulate the pain (and the fear) factor in striking than in grappling.

It doesn’t have to be, but unfortunately it often is a problem for many people trying to teach wing chun.

Answer? USE OF GLOVES, HEADGEAR, PADDING, ETC. And more frequent sparring. And less power trips by those who are conducting the classes, ie.- how often do they spar with the students? Do they encourage their students to be competitive with them?

Too many wing chun people have been resistant to these things, even today, it seems to me.