[QUOTE=Lucas;906249]drilled correctly, a kungfu guy can apply his basics in a relatively short amount of time. no, he would not be displaying a high level of understanding of his particular cma in a fight, but you can get a guy off the line and able to defend himself with punches, kicks, and throws pretty quick. as quickly as with any other martial art mentioned. unless you dont engrain the basics and conditioning first…[/QUOTE]
Traditionalists believe that without roots you dont have kung fu. To develop kung fu roots it takes a long time. If you get a guy to use kung fu techniques effectively without roots, in a short time, is to get him to fight effectively(using kicks and punches) as a glorified kickboxer and not a genuine kung fu exponent!
so 800 years ago when a man began training under his sifu, and was forced to defend himself within the first few years, and does so succesfully using the foundation he has been building, he is a glorified kickboxer huh?
funny, that. didnt know there was glorified kick boxers back then. just men who had a certain level of understanding of their arts. whether that be large or small, mastered or not.
seems to me he would have just been able to apply what foundation he has been working on.
of course this DOES depend on who you talk to.
even traditionalists can view this particual circumstance very differently. not everyone is of the same exact mindset.
the skill one has attained over time through hard work would be evident in ones actions, regardless of the amount of skill one has attained.
i agree that within a short amount of time one cannot master, ANYTHING, but i disagree that one is simply a ‘glorified kickboxer’ if they can apply their material after just a few years of training. as long as they understand the ‘what’ ‘how’ and ‘why’ of what they are doing, they are on the right track.
its people who dont understand their currently learned material that are the ‘glorified kickboxers’ you speak of.
one can build a certain extent of a foundation within a given amount of time, and if trained correctly, self motivation being required to give the effort to understand what they are learning, one can indeed ‘know’ what they are doing. even if it is only the basics.
Bruce Lee used to be CMA guy too. He knew many CMAs.
But why did he gave them up & created JKD?
People who learn boxing, kickboxing, bjj, muay thai, karate also take years to perfect their skills too but it only take them a few months or perhaps a few weeks to put their arts into actual use.:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Lucas;906257]so 800 years ago when a man began training under his sifu, and was forced to defend himself within the first few years, and does so succesfully using the foundation he has been building, he is a glorified kickboxer huh?[/quote]
Don´t assume that kung fu training 800 years ago was anything like it is today, specially in the West. Your fighting skills then could mean the difference between life and death.
From what I know the people did not train for a couple of hours, two or three times a week after work. Assuming that they had a real kung fu master (and not one of our forum´s “kung fu gods”) teaching in the first place, and trained hard (perhaps in ways that would get your sifu sued nowadays) the varilus aspects including Iron Palm, Iron Fist, Iron Body,etc.
You misunderstand. A glorified kickboxer is one who dables in kung fu but mixes other arts such as bjj, Muy Thai, boxing to his curriculum without having built a firm foundation and understanding in kung fu. Meaning that he is using a Hybrid system that may of course work for him but it is NOT kung fu!!!
Of course not. You could be a kung fu beginner with one year of experience in an authentic school and that would put you ahead (as far as purity/authenticity and even understanding is concerned) of most of the MMA “kung fu masters” here in the forums.
Lack of experience does not make you a glorified kickboxer. It is lack of understanding and that comes from training in non-authentic schools and or mixing irrelevant MAs to your curriculum.
And if as a beginner you decide to “complete” your kung fu training by practicing other irrelevant arts (as encouraged by some of this forums kung fu “experts”) then that will, more likely than not, turn your kung fu into Glorified Kickboxing.
In the light of what I said before in this post you will by now know that I agree with your statement above.
[QUOTE=jack;906341]Bruce Lee used to be CMA guy too.[/quote]
His “foundation” was CMA.
As far as I am aware he did not MASTER any style of CMA, not even Wing Chun!
He gave up and created JKD probably because he found kung fu lacking in certain areas, rather like some of the “kung fu” crosstrainers here in the forum who have not understood let alone mastered any single system of CMA but yet are too ready to badmouth Chinese Kung Fu and point out its “flaws”.
Your statement applies more to boxing, kickboxing,bjj,muay thai and some styles of karate( such as kyokushin) than it does for most major styles of kung fu, that by design take longer to learn.
Of course, there is always San Da for those who cant wait.
don’t be sorry - I personally don’t care - in fact, please, keep doing it - it will only hasten your eventual re-departure; remember, you’re the one who got banned once for your style of posting, so go ahead, dig your own hole - dig like the wind!
[/QUOTE]
Uh, isn’t it Run Like The Wind? Wow, for someone so cerebral, you should need help with your Metaphors…
[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;906663]Uh, isn’t it Run Like The Wind? Wow, for someone so cerebral, you should need help with your Metaphors…[/QUOTE]
actually, there was this sitcom on Fox back in the '90’s called Good Grief w/Howie Mandel as the off-beat director of a funeral home; at one point he had his assistant, Raul, exhume a corpse wrongly buried (or somesuch), and I just remember him calling out, “Dig like the wind, Raul!”; hence my oxymoronic-like metaphor…
Wing Chun used to simple, direct & practical but it has changed a lot now.
That’s why leong Ting also tried to absorbed quite a bit from bjj, muay thai, boxing & of course other CMAs & later changed his WT into something else different from traditional Wing Chun. Bruce Lee doesn’t need to complete his Wing Chun study.
Attend Ted Wong’s seminar if you had a chance. Some had tried Wing Chun on him before & it didn’t worked on him.
In China, Taiwan or Hong Kong, many had turned to san da, muay thai, tkd, bjj, mma etc instead of traditional CMAs. Of course, there are still some good CMAs fighters but they are getting rare nowsadays. They are also afraid of muay thay, mma, bjj fighters too.
Here is a clip of two CMA masters fought in a competition. They had learn their arts since youth. Judging from the way they fought, it looks like boxing & street fighting.
oh man - that fight has been hashed and rehashed to death around here and is nothing more than an example of how two people perform when they have obviously never actually fought full contact against a resisting opponent; the skill level of both was abysmal and embarrassing; end of story
[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;906742]oh man - that fight has been hashed and rehashed to death around here and is nothing more than an example of how two people perform when they have obviously never actually fought full contact against a resisting opponent; the skill level of both was abysmal and embarrassing; end of story[/QUOTE]
+1
also, this thread seems like itll turn into another style vs style or style vs practitioner threads.
[QUOTE=jack;906734]Wing Chun used to simple, direct & practical but it has changed a lot now.
That’s why leong Ting also tried to absorbed quite a bit from bjj, muay thai, boxing & of course other CMAs & later changed his WT into something else different from traditional Wing Chun.[/quote]
Leong Ting is a kung fu master and a businessman. He will add and take away anything to and from his Wing Chun, or Tsun as the case may be, to make it more marketable.
Bruce Lee was one of those rare human beings who had a strong warrior spirit, dedication and intelligence to improve his abilities towards a combative end. That means that he could have beaten you up with ballet techniques. However, that does not and never made him a kung fu master nor an authority on kung fu and its supposed shortcomings.
That statement is not significant. Who tried WC techniques on him? From what lineage were they? How long had they practiced? Were they really trying to hurt him? Was it a challenge match?
And many havent!
However this modern phenomenom is related to the fact that people have lower attention spans when training martial arts. This means that they want higher results in a shorter time and here you will get no arguments from me because you will get quicker results from all the MAs you have mentioned above.
Not as rare as you may think but rarer than MT, BJJ etc.
That is not a correct assumption. Maybe you have been reading too many posts by this forums know nothing knuckleheads?
These arent masters! They may have had a reputation as masters and maybe they were masters of kung fu forms. In my book masters of kung fu know how to fight. I have met a few who can fight!
