I was training the other day and while doing the SLT i came over an idea of the footwork in WC found in the SLT form.
I was wondering if anyone else sees this, and where in the form they see it? …or should i say feel it. 
I’m there with you.
I think all footwork is implied in SNT, and I often visualize certain footwork (engaging the leg and torso muscle chains which support it in a smaller manner) while performing it. The passing step fits very nicely with the jum/gan/lau of the 6th set, and almost requires one think of the body like you would while doing that ‘normal’ gait from the knife form.
I also just pick pieces out and work them directly with various footwork.
FWIW,
Andrew
The SLT I learned has the opening and closing horse (Hoi Ma, Sao Ma) which include the toe-out and toe-in steps. Anyone who’s seen a little Bagua knows these can be quite dynamic footwork (geuk faat, in the complete sense of mobility and defense/offense movements).
Beyond that, WCK IMHO is modular and you can put movements from SLT together with any footwork as the situation demands. Some teachers even have SLT where they’ve integrated what they believe to be optimal coordinated footwork as examples for their students, and some systems like Cho Ga have sets that are elaborations on parts of SLT including examples of footwork coordination.
RR
Hey Rene,
nice point about the opening/closing of the stance. The explanations I’ve heard for that are pretty analogous to the bagua actions you describe. We also explain those as the first place yup (tan) and bong gherk are found (and I would argue that the initial sink with feet together contains the elements of the kick and much leg work).
A question- not sure if your Chum Kiu has this- step up with double man sao from double low bong sao- if so, do you interpret that step up as an application from toe in/toe out? Just curious.
Andrew
Sifu Chris Chan’s moving SNT
I have heard that Sifu Chris Chan (Yip Man student) has integrated significant footwork into both his SNT and BJ forms.
Might be able to get an idea from: http://www.uswingchun.com
Andrew,
I didn’t learn a lot along the lines of tan/bong gerk etc. (don’t even use those terms) and we don’t do chi gerk, we do have rather visible cirlcing movements preceding kicks which we use to evade incoming kicks, and rising movements which we use to obstruct if we’re a bit slow in evading 8), but I like the way you break it apart like that.
In that section of Chum Kiu, we go from double mid-level Pao Bong (throwing wings) into a nameless movement we kind of slang-call embracing arms (since they look like Taiji’s embrace the moon). Their obvious application is the standing guillotine choke or the body wrap throw, depending on how high you apply it (or really a lot of other throws or kum na movements). The footwork does have a little toe-out (to toe straight) which is handy for making sure you can then follow up in any direction a resistant opponent might try and take you.
RR
Hey Rene,
hmm- so you take a an arc on the way in with the leg? I think this is one of those ‘more easily shown’ things- as some of what I do for leg contact has components of rising and arcing- basically (from C2), the knee of the (counter) kicking leg draws in front of the support knee, perhaps with the lower leg going slightly back, as the knee comes up and forward in front of the support knee, occupying the somewhat nebulous 'low centerline (a serious theory geek-out I don’t like getting near) and progressing up it to some place in between the two upper thighs (again, which and why is a theory geekout I don’t have enough coffee or will in for me right now, and personally, I’m just happy to have a leg in the way when a hard thai kick comes). If contact is made at any point besides release of force, a chi gherk action occurs- pak, gum, bong, yup, jut, huen, etc. (and lots of kao, kao seems to be a very useful thing with the legs). Digression aside- is what I describe precontact at all like your circling movements?
The chum kiu thing- we go low to high from wide to close- essentially describing the range of the bong sao. I’ve seen the weight shift and change in shin angle here used to describe a shin lock/low leg control based on either toe in/or toe out, and applied as a truely obnoxious defense against a low shooter (ankle level)- getting head control with the shin.
Standing guillotine I can see- body wrap throw? Wuzzat? Do you interpret the mechanics of this step up as having slight back extension?
Mechanics-wise- the simultaneous motion of hand and foot, and simultaneous conclusion of each has been heavily stressed to me in this section (an ‘external harmony’ thing, IMHO)- do you take that message home here too?
Andrew
P.S. Umm, shouldn’t we be having a flamewar, or insulting random lineages with minimal understanding of them? Is this sort of discourse allowed on this board? Oh well, I’m sure someone will be along to hijack the thread shortly.
P.P.S. We need to hit a serious discussion on short power at some point. I think I disagree with an offhand remark of yours in the chi sao tournament thread, and am curious.
Oh well, I’m sure someone will be along to hijack the thread shortly.
Maybe most everyone’s eyes are busy crossing trying to work out what your talking about!
Originally posted by teazer
[B]
Maybe most everyone’s eyes are busy crossing trying to work out what your talking about! [/B]
If people can’t follow along, they should spend more time practicing and less time posting.
Hi Andrew,
Yup with the easier shown, but let’s give it the ole collige try. We usually have an outward rotation of the foot accompanied by an outward circling movement in the sets as a preface to the kick (all our kicking movements in the sets are compound movements that contain an initial evasion, an intermidary obstruction, and then one or more kicking actions (thrust, press, snap, nail, etc.)). So, for example with Chuen Sum Gerk (the front kick that has the foot outwardly rotated) with the right leg, you’d draw back slightly as you circle clockwise and begin raising the foot (which would remove the lower leg as a target for linear attacks and position the foot to counter kick the attacking limb very quickly if need be). The leg then continues to rise which occupies the lower meridian line (no geeking or coffee required ;), obstructing anything you were to slow to evade. The Hey Sup (Rising Knee) can be used at this point, depending on range, or the kick proper can be executed. Of course, in application, if you don’t need the evasion, obstruction, or knee, etc. you can just lash the Heart Piercing Kick straight out without preamble.
I learned the low leg lock/press as well, though its more apparent in our dummy set (and does tie in nicely to the toe-in/out stuff in the opening and closing horses). With the shoot, are you talking about the heel/ankle pick? I’ve played around with that , mostly with the initial evasion move, which sets it up nicely for a kick to the head/neck/shoulder.
Body-wrap throw, hmmm. Picture a guillitine but instead of wrapping the neck, you go under the arm and wrap the upper torso, using your hip as a fulcrum, and leveraging them over it. I have a sisuk whose notorious for pulling this off in Chi Sao 8). Very similar to a Bagua throw I learned. Not sure about the back, I’ll play with it and get back to you.
I’ve had the hand/waist/horse harmony battered into me (literally) since the beginning. With this section of CK, its especially focused on the dynamic element (moving while an opponent is moving) which can be trickier since you never know which way they’ll thrash to get away.
BTW - Your lineage is ugly and your sifu dresses you funny! And something about army boots!
WRT short power, no worries, whenever you have time.
teazer and Sandman2[Wing Chun] stop trolling.
RR
Hey Rene,
Ok- it sounds like we’re pretty close on in how we look at kicking, based on the printed page. Leg moves over by other leg while weight shifts- evasion. Knee comes up, control low centerline- from here out any contact is chi gherk. No contact, the way is free, kick.
The shoot- basically, I’ve seen this, used, and used variants on this myself, for most situations where someone comes (usually because life has been made less pleasant up higher) with their torso below the knee, either 'cos they can’t get a body lock, and life at the waist pushed them lower, or a double leg went awry, or a BJJ guy playing ‘Jello’, or someone hunting for an ankle-lock. With the shoot (even with first contact way low, an ankle level shooter with much momentum), I’ve best seen this used as the shoot goes toward the front leg. Pressure at the front leg, moves you back and out to the side, keeping the initial leg forward. At this point you should be off the main line of the shoot. As they try to readjust, usually going for a single on the front leg, , the back shin comes in to press the shoulder, and lever to scrape the front leg out, back and off-line again. (dummy footwork). This tends to get the shooter to chase the initial target for a moment, normally a good strategy, but the other shin is a fulcrum on the shoulder, which makes it much easier to free the front leg, while spiralling pressure into them more tightly than the spiral made by the readjustment of the shoot (smaller radius on the circle between the feet, than that encompassing the torso). The back leg become the front here- the piece of chum kiu we were talking about. At this point, you usually can bring the shin down on the head/neck/shoulder with your whole bodyweight, and use the shin lock as a head control. You can get this earlier, but handling the substantial momentum that comes with a good shoot is a priority.
Body wrap throw- hang on, are you making a setup for the Pedigree or are you going under one arm and dumping them down and to the side/back by stepping through as the arms go up? Or is this off of (for lack of a better term) the chicken wing that is the tan/pak after the turning lan saos? Two arms or one, and are they square on with head by hip or T-ed off?
This sounds like something I have to learn to do, more fun than an old-school piledriver or twist of fate. . .
I wish I’d gotten level of attention to mechanics I receive now in the beginning of my training, or the detail, and am a tad jealous of your good fortune.
Later,
Andrew
teazer and Sandman2[Wing Chun] stop trolling.
Not ‘trolling’, just running interference!
As to the conversation, at least based on the average Yip Man version of CK, I can see the ‘arm wrap’ as such. To me it is reminicent of, from a cross wrist single or double grab & pull, crossing one arm under the opposite armpit & pinning the other, transitioning either into an assumed kick/knee with the feet together and/or pull down to either side.
In the situation, the alternative explanations for bringing the feet together seem a little shaky though
the alternative explanations for bringing the feet together seem a little shaky though
Other than, of course the times when you just have to
Good discussion Rene and AndrewS. I look forward to reading and thinking your posts through in detail when have some quiet time, as they are too complex and detailed for casual reading (which is good).
My Sifu has been encouraging his more senior students to incorporate different facing and stepping into all the forms, including SLT, and the dummy. After a while this can become a base for significant exploration and a much more dynamic method of practice.
I too have experimented with the “kinetic chains” available while practising (the stationary) SLT. IMO the biggest mistake is to assume that the spine and other joints must remain rigid and unmoving during practice, and the practitioner stands or steps like he has a broomstick up his posterior. Body unity means the whole body moves.
IMO the biggest mistake is to assume that the spine and other joints must remain rigid and unmoving during practice
What should the spine be doing?
If the spine is unmoving and stacked one vertebrae on top of the next, and provided it is linked in totality, with itself, and the bones in the arms and legs to the ground (etc..), this is one big piece of the structural puzzle IMHO. i.e. allowing the force to travel through the skeletal structure.
While I agree that the spine should in no way be ridged, I disagree on what I see as an inference that it should bend and bob and weave like a boxer. I cant see how structure is maintained if your are bent over?
What makes the spine rigid? A misguided belief that a perfectly straight and immovable spine is the best position for power development and efficient movement.
What should it be doing? Articulating and moving so as to provide the best alignment or movement to allow the entire structure to add power, or energy, to whatever you are doing.
Anerlich,
I edited my post and saved it just after u posted this. I thought this was more what im thinking.
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If the spine is unmoving and stacked one vertebrae on top of the next, and provided it is linked in totality, with itself, and the bones in the arms and legs to the ground (etc..), this is one big piece of the structural puzzle IMHO. i.e. allowing the force to travel through the skeletal structure.
While I agree that the spine should in no way be ridged, I disagree on what I see as an inference that it should bend and bob and weave like a boxer. I cant see how structure is maintained if your are bent over?
I didn’t say that.
Subtle and well timed movements of the pelvis and the spine, incorporated with correct breathing. will allow you to hit harder and absorb force more effectively in the basic stance.
Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen’s Siu Lin Tao has always been taught with footworks, leg checks, kicks and knees. James Cama Sifu came out with this in his Inside Kung-fu article in 1987. Leung Chi Man Sifu has been teaching this since the 70’s here in the states. Siu Baat Gwa positions and kicking postures are in the form. Also included are the Chi Gerk postures.
rigid spine
Doesn’t biu chee show us how to be supple and loose in our movement? why can’t we slip a punch?
Originally posted by S.Teebas
If the spine is unmoving and stacked one vertebrae on top of the next, and provided it is linked in totality, with itself, and the bones in the arms and legs to the ground (etc..), this is one big piece of the structural puzzle IMHO. i.e. allowing the force to travel through the skeletal structure.
While I agree that the spine should in no way be ridged, I disagree on what I see as an inference that it should bend and bob and weave like a boxer. I cant see how structure is maintained if your are bent over? [/B]