Here is mine.
I like the following song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn8Wj5O1Ghc&feature=related
Enjoy
the War of heart… what is not hand?
[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;908677]I beg to differ
We had a 5 Ancestor Master/Doctor in private practice who learnt for 20 over years in Malaysia and when he discovered wingchun, he crossed the causeway to Singapore, just to learn Yip Chun Wingchun. He even went back to malaysia and brought his 5 Ancestor Students to learn from my Sifu.
His comments were he had to relearn “everything” again.
Interestingly he told us a story about his fellow siheng, who burst a blood vessel “playing” with a young guy in class, he died.
In chi sao, he was very hard, strong, fast. Hard bridges, very tense. Like a truck, but not wingchun definately. And using mere slapping, or hand muscles to power your strikes would yield no results against him. Breaking structure moves like Larp sao against his tense arms, neck, shoulder strikes were effective.
In wingchun we want to use just enough energy, economy of motion/energy, and to be Sung/relax. Structure, angles, body sticking, whole body attacks, signatures of wingchun are needed.
The wingchun chi sao positions are far from “fixed”, every position is held just enough to react to the amount of force the hands receive and every angled hand has its principle in physical body structure principles e.g elbows tips pointing down, so the muscles wrap around the bone.
But having said that, Wingchun is a soft, internal art. Its not Choy lay fut or 5 Ancestor…
In the words of a Senior who gave me some tips in another wingchun lineage,
If Wingchun is hard versus hard, then we can forget about wingchun
Me thinks, Its never the style, its the stylist. Every style is great, if you train hard enough.[/QUOTE]
There are various branches of five ancestor fist, from what is being described the practioner/master who turned to wing chun, definitely would not belong to the legendary CHEE KIM THONG \ YAP LEONG branch, having played with Sifu Yap Leong his energy is complete. Hard to see on video but in reality any attack or disturbance in energy he just deals/ responds and counters very naturally, never allowing his opponent in. I doubt that any practctioner who practices WuZuQuan from this lineage would need to turn to wing chun. I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is !
[QUOTE=shaolinfist;920259]I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is ![/QUOTE]
Unfortunately I agree with you.
There are good schools that deal with sensitivity and internal aspects as well as other kung fu elements, but they are very very and I mean very rare.
[QUOTE=shaolinfist;920259]There are various branches of five ancestor fist, from what is being described the practioner/master who turned to wing chun, definitely would not belong to the legendary CHEE KIM THONG \ YAP LEONG branch, having played with Sifu Yap Leong his energy is complete. Hard to see on video but in reality any attack or disturbance in energy he just deals/ responds and counters very naturally, never allowing his opponent in. I doubt that any practctioner who practices WuZuQuan from this lineage would need to turn to wing chun. I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is ![/QUOTE]
Why come onto this forum trolling ? What is your true identity ? Its quite clear shaolinfist,Hardwork108,clam61 and Yoshiyahu are the same person so i suggest you take your trolling elsewhere. An IP address verification should be a simple task by the moderators.
[QUOTE=Jammydog;920404]Why come onto this forum trolling ? What is your true identity ? Its quite clear shaolinfist,Hardwork108,clam61 and Yoshiyahu are the same person so i suggest you take your trolling elsewhere. An IP address verification should be a simple task by the moderators.[/QUOTE]
FYI, IP verification shows they are not the same person.
[QUOTE=Jammydog;920404]Why come onto this forum trolling ? What is your true identity ? Its quite clear shaolinfist,Hardwork108,clam61 and Yoshiyahu are the same person so i suggest you take your trolling elsewhere. An IP address verification should be a simple task by the moderators.[/QUOTE]
Jammydog,
As the moderator has pointed out you are wrong. There is a big problem with wing chun nowadays. It has become a victim of its own popularity and hence most schools are just money making machines and most of them miss the internal elements that give kung fu its essence.
I still practise Wing Chun and consider myself lucky to have foung an authentic school that practises Wing Chun in all its aspects including the internals and Iron Palm.
Take care.
Hey mates,
all this 5 ancestor is better than wingchun, or wingchun better than 5 ancestor is just talk and we know this. Taiji or white crane, white crane or yiquan, wingchun or white crane, muay thai or boxing etc…
Even UFC has shown, there is no 1 style that is superior- only styles which people have not alot of exposure to, and once its learnt, it aint that superior after all because it can be beat.
Even between lineages of wingchun, people want to believe their lineage is more authentic or has secrets that they others dont have. There might be some truth in that.
But most of the time it comes down to the person, how much time he trains, and how he trains.
Same Person
[QUOTE=Jammydog;920404]Why come onto this forum trolling ? What is your true identity ? Its quite clear shaolinfist,Hardwork108,clam61 and Yoshiyahu are the same person so i suggest you take your trolling elsewhere. An IP address verification should be a simple task by the moderators.[/QUOTE]
Ha ha my friend…Actually I could not be same person as Clam61 because i dont agree with everything he says. As for those three speaking of the five ancestors. I can not share any info concerning the five ancestors because I am not really sure what kung fu style that is. So I can merely listen I never studied anything called the five ancestors. But it does sound interesting. I would love to touch hands with someone who practices it.
As for WC being internal. I do agree with that. But that doesn’t make me the same person. Sorry friend. I am person who dislikes BJJ i believe Clam favors BJJ…So that would discount me as being the same person. Sorry for you being wrong. ha ha…Besides I live in a totally different state than those guys.
[QUOTE=shaolinfist;920259] I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is ![/QUOTE]
The hollow in your Wing Chun is more likely a reflection on your own personal lack of comprehension and level of skill attained in Chi Sau.
The inciting and immature comments you made above does nothing but reflect poorly on your own training inadequacies. For if it were really the case i dont see a mad rush of students from the Wing Chun community knocking at his door.
Regardless i have actually exchanged hands with Sifu Yap Leong and have a high respect for his level of skill. I’m sure he would be the first to attribute skill before style and even says so in the short clip. 5 Ancestors is itself combination of many kung fu styles.
If you do indeed do not have an personal or polictical agenda maybe you would like to tell me who you have trained with ? or even PM me
[QUOTE=Shaolin Fist;921349]The hollow in your Wing Chun is more likely a reflection on your own personal lack of comprehension and level of skill attained in Chi Sau.[/quote]
With all due respect I think that he was referring to the popular mainstream Wing Chun franchises. Or am I wrong?
Well I could be so maybe ShaolinFist can clarify things.
I would just say again that there is not anything wrong with Wing Chun, the problem is in the way it is practised in the majority of schools nowadays, just like most of the other kung fu styles. It is just that, because of its popularity, Wing Chun and its shorcomings (when badly trained) are more visible.
To be honest and I know this from posting experience here in the forums, a lot of Wing Chuners and other kung fu stylists with so called “credentials” don’t seem to be aware of the internal side of kung fu. It is a case of “if you want to improve your kung fu then find a partner, get in the ring and hit each other!”. This is enfortunate but true.
Sometimes when on mentions the internal side of Wing Chun or kung fu one is met with jokes about magic powers and fantasy. Luckily some new and recent posters have discussed the internals in a knowing and serious manner, but even some them have been met with ridicule by the knucklehead fraternity in this forum. So I would say the majority of Wing Chunners here do not practise the internal side of their art and hence their kung fu is incomplete.
Very true.
[QUOTE=shaolinfist;920259]There are various branches of five ancestor fist, from what is being described the practioner/master who turned to wing chun, definitely would not belong to the legendary CHEE KIM THONG \ YAP LEONG branch, having played with Sifu Yap Leong his energy is complete. Hard to see on video but in reality any attack or disturbance in energy he just deals/ responds and counters very naturally, never allowing his opponent in. I doubt that any practctioner who practices WuZuQuan from this lineage would need to turn to wing chun. I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is ![/QUOTE]
This is a pointless retort that doesnt go beyond I believe my sifu is the best in the world kind of thing
What does it mean his energy is complete? What kind of energy? Please describe.
What do you mean wingchun is hallow? In what way? What kind of wingchun energy did you practice? Who was your Sifu? How much wingchun did he learn? How much time did you spend practicing?
This is not about wingchun is better or Wu Zu is better. Its a personal choice.
Wuzu and Wingchun are definately different in many ways.
Any one trying to compare these as which is better are just doing apples with pears, not the same.
[QUOTE=Shaolin Fist;921349]The hollow in your Wing Chun is more likely a reflection on your own personal lack of comprehension and level of skill attained in Chi Sau.
The inciting and pathetic comment you made above does nothing but reflect poorly on your own training inadequacies. For if it were really the case i dont see a mad rush of students from the Wing Chun community knocking at his door.
Regardless i have actually trained with Sifu Yap Leong and know him quite well. He would be the first to attribute skill before style and even says so in the short clip. 5 Ancestors is itself combination of many kung fu styles.
If you do indeed do not have an personal or polictical agenda maybe you would like to tell me who you have trained with ? or even PM me[/QUOTE]
my 21 years experience tells me that its more than just my inadequate grasp of wing chun and chi sau that backs up my comparison between wc and 5a, maybe one of the reasons sifu yap leongs door isnt being burst open by wing chun students
is because 1. they are very proud. 2 it takes alot of time patience and seasoning to become empty and voidlike. beyond what most people can give there time and energy too. I f you know sifu yap leong then you will also know that pound for pound 5a is superior, of course you would know if you have played with him.
I have no political agenda here just experience, on that note could you clarfiy what you mean by “PM to me” ? reading my cv is not the same as touching hands.
[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;921489]This is a pointless retort that doesnt go beyond I believe my sifu is the best in the world kind of thing
What does it mean his energy is complete? What kind of energy? Please describe.
What do you mean wingchun is hallow? In what way? What kind of wingchun energy did you practice? Who was your Sifu? How much wingchun did he learn? How much time did you spend practicing?
This is not about wingchun is better or Wu Zu is better. Its a personal choice.
Wuzu and Wingchun are definately different in many ways.
Any one trying to compare these as which is better are just doing apples with pears, not the same.[/QUOTE]
you remarks are quite contradictory, was it not you who first stated it was YOUR Sifu who taught the 5 a master. either you are on yourway into the tao and i havent seen the profoundness of your words or you dont think before you speak. pride is a crippler.
What i mean by complete energy is that it seems you cant even move when you touch hands with sifu leong let alone bong tan pak sau etc.. if you go soft you will fall into the emptiness and void if you go hard you float. i feel that wing chun as a style doesnt provide an appropriate framework to develop this.
you can say that there are internal schools of wing chun that is correct, but still the principles and framework of these styles are still flawed in my opinion. wether
a bong sau is done soft hard or whatever way it still isnt a very good posture.
I know what you are going to say " bong sau is for beginners" advanced wing chun has no shapes" if it has no shape then how is it wing chun?.
I hope that helps.
you are right there is no comparison
[QUOTE=shaolinfist;921562]
you can say that there are internal schools of wing chun that is correct, but still the principles and framework of these styles are still flawed in my opinion. wether
a bong sau is done soft hard or whatever way it still isnt a very good posture.
I know what you are going to say " bong sau is for beginners" advanced wing chun has no shapes" if it has no shape then how is it wing chun?.[/quote]
Well if there is not shape then you will still have the wing chun principles as as a guide. After all in higher levels of practise one is not even suppose to use blocks.
You know, I would say that everyone here will know that not all kung fu styles are equal. That means that there are kung fu styles that are better than others and the little I know about 5a fist would in my opinion put it ahead of Wing Chun.
So I am not going to say that because I do WC then it is the best. I got over that kind stuff when I was around 8 years old.
Wu Zhu Quan seems to have “deeper” internals and of course uses more in your face techniques, that is, force is discipated not by turning your stance but by the use of soft force through the upper limbs, while facing the opponent squarely, am I correct?
Of course, anyone reading this can correct me with more info in such aspects within WC. Or perhaps we can even start a new thread and compare these arts which at some level share similarities but are very different.
Tell us more about Sifu Yap Leong as well.
And here’s his method of dealing with WC chi sao.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJIthqEqGk0&feature=related
[QUOTE=shaolinfist;921562]you remarks are quite contradictory, was it not you who first stated it was YOUR Sifu who taught the 5 a master. either you are on yourway into the tao and i havent seen the profoundness of your words or you dont think before you speak. pride is a crippler.
What i mean by complete energy is that it seems you cant even move when you touch hands with sifu leong let alone bong tan pak sau etc.. if you go soft you will fall into the emptiness and void if you go hard you float. i feel that wing chun as a style doesnt provide an appropriate framework to develop this.
you can say that there are internal schools of wing chun that is correct, but still the principles and framework of these styles are still flawed in my opinion. wether
a bong sau is done soft hard or whatever way it still isnt a very good posture.
I know what you are going to say " bong sau is for beginners" advanced wing chun has no shapes" if it has no shape then how is it wing chun?.
I hope that helps.
you are right there is no comparison[/QUOTE]
Tao? pride? You talk like you know me. Profoundness? You say statements that say nothing- so I ask you to present your evidence of your training and your knowledge. Its not a surprise you get personal and go off track.
Yes I said my sifu taught a Wuzu master who converted to wingchun. Did I say wingchun was better or Wuzu? It was a personal choice, just like what I said in my last email.
What has my words got to do with your claim that wingchun is hallow?
What has it got to do with your claim you studied wingchun? Hence I asked you how long you studied. How long have your spend practicing? Who was your Sifu?
You use your experience with a Wuzu master to describe wingchun being hallow?
Its like saying I am having a pear and talking about how ALL apples taste weird.
How many apples did you taste? How many internal wingchun masters did you seek out?(and point, there really arent that many)
Framework? Please describe your previous wingchun framework/body structure, methods to generate striking force.
Internal wingchun schools structure are flawed. Please share, what is flawed.
Why you talking like you know me? Or know what I am going to say- " bong sau is for beginners" advanced wing chun has no shapes"? What have your been smoking? Your MA training trains ESP too? This is not kuen kuit yeah? I have never heard these claims on bong sao or advance wingchun. What does that mean- advanced?
If there are not comparisons, then you have just slapped yourself on the face. You signed up on KF forums just to retort a comparison for Wuzu and Wingchun. Your pride to defend Wuzu is what is happening here. If you like your training with Sifu Yap, share. Dont talk down about other arts. They aint got nothing to do with your training with him right?
Note- I am not defending wingchun(wingchun doesnt need defending) I am merely relating experiences of what a Wuzu Master said to me, when he trained with us. You however are claiming to know all about wingchun and belittle it, and put Wuzu higher.
However when someone belittles another art, I want to know, what is your basis? What kind of training with references, names, description, instead of vague words of nothing.
Please share your training for unifed body structure, spine, kua, shoulder nest. How to open and close these gates?
How do you train coiling of tendons and muscles. How do you train kung lik?
Do you do big heavenly circulation or small heavenly circulation?
Do you breath through the yongquan? How do you train rooting?
Nothing to get personal, what all this tao, pride talk. Talk mechanics, details, leave the my daddy is better than yours for the playground.
My respect for TCMA says all styles are good, and we honour the style, the ancestors and the way. The only reason why someone says another is better is because the other person trained harder, or the person who is making a observation isnt qualified to do so- Not knowing where or what to look for.
I still love training with my Wuzu/Wingchun mates when they come to visit because they can switch on Wuzu and we can have a party. We always walk away with new found respect for each other, and learning something new.
The fact that you are willing to put down your own lineage of other practitioners of Wuzu to play up the name of Sifu Yap speaks volumes
As if wingchun doesnt have enough internal family problems with claims of who is more authentic, which master was better, who taught who, who beat up who etc…We need to have other lineages claiming wingchun is hallow.
[QUOTE=shaolinfist;920259]There are various branches of five ancestor fist, from what is being described the practioner/master who turned to wing chun, definitely would not belong to the legendary CHEE KIM THONG \ YAP LEONG branch, having played with Sifu Yap Leong his energy is complete. Hard to see on video but in reality any attack or disturbance in energy he just deals/ responds and counters very naturally, never allowing his opponent in. I doubt that any practctioner who practices WuZuQuan from this lineage would need to turn to wing chun. I myself was a Wing Chun practioner, since practicing Fve ancestors i realise how hollow the popular wc is ![/QUOTE]
Hardwork108
This is true of alot of chinese arts e.g taiji, wingchun(see a description by Jim when he met Senior Hendrik)- Its alot similar to what was described of Sifu Leung. This is true of my experience with my internal arts sigung.
I study Hsing I, bagua, yiquan, taiji, qigong in our lineage together with internal wingchun.
Its all very deep. I still have a long way to go to manifest what the Yik Kam Kuen Kuit(Senior Hendrik lineage) describes.
To root a force, you have to be soft, and it goes into the ground. If you are hard- it doesnt help because you are running on lik- strength energy.
[QUOTE=shaolinfist;921558] I f you know sifu yap leong then you will also know that pound for pound 5a is superior, of course you would know if you have played with him.[/QUOTE]
Its a fact that there are good teachers and bad ones. The kung fu world is not regulated nor is it based on performance or results. A teacher could be crap yet still open up a school, these days it seems more like a type of leisure business.
Forget the fact that the teacher might be unskilled in the first place we also have so many schools being opened and run by inexperienced teachers (less 5 years of experience)
I could say i have played a Wing Chun guy in the past who have did the same to me and made me feel inferior what’s your point ? so i dare say you are talking from limited experience, not from the number of years of experience but rather from a limited exposure to the number of good Wing Chun teachers.
To make such a big sweeping statement based on what experience ?..If you had traded hands with at least 5 Wing Chun teachers of different lineages (with over 25 years experience) and then maybe your comments wouldn’t come across (in your own word’s) … ‘Hollow’
The forums are a place to share our experiences and all styles are welcomed but all you have done is to sow the seeds in creating bad blood. Hardly in the spirit of Shaolin.
[QUOTE=Shaolin Fist;921636]Its a fact that there are good teachers and bad ones. The kung fu world is not regulated nor is it based on performance or results. A teacher could be crap yet still open up a school, these days it seems more like a type of leisure business.
Forget the fact that the teacher might be unskilled in the first place we also have so many schools being opened and run by inexperienced teachers (less 5 years of experience)
I could say i have played a Wing Chun guy in the past who have did the same to me and made me feel inferior what’s your point ? so i dare say you are talking from limited experience, not from the number of years of experience but rather from a limited exposure to the number of good Wing Chun teachers.
To make such a big sweeping statement based on what experience ?..If you had traded hands with at least 5 Wing Chun teachers of different lineages (with over 25 years experience) and then maybe your comments wouldn’t come across (in your own word’s) … ‘Hollow’
The forums are a place to share our experiences and all styles are welcomed but all you have done is to sow the seeds in creating bad blood. Hardly in the spirit of Shaolin.[/QUOTE]
Shaolin Fist, you are making a great point
I liked Sifu Yaps demos and a good representation of Wuzu. I also liked Sifu Samuel Kwoks demos which show wingchun and his ability to strike with shock energy. And I respect many other sifus around.
There is no such nonsense as pound for pound Wuzu is superior. Is he claiming Sifu Yap claims so? I could then say, pound for pound bruce lee or mohd ali or yip man or wong shun leung etc…is superior. Means absolutely…NOTHING!!!
Here we want to talk about Chinese Martial Arts engines, pistons, rods, air intake, exhaust manifold, extractors, tuning etc… Serious stuff.
Talk like my daddy has a bigger car, hence he is better than you, is reserved for the playground.
Back in the day, Yip Man’s clan forged the name of wingchun through challenge matches. Master Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung etc… Bruce Lee was known for his skill. In taiwan wingchun is used for its police. In Germany, the special forces use wingtsun.
Anyone saying wingchun is unrealistic or cant be used or is a hollow shell is smoking something I dont want any of.