“Then they are just violent young men who are now in better shape. From 0 - 2 months does not a wreckin’ machine make.”
lol at the exclusion of techniques. Doubt the folkstyle wrestling…doesn’t mean much to me cause the more doubters mean the less knowledge.
Originally posted by LEGEND
[B]“Then they are just violent young men who are now in better shape. From 0 - 2 months does not a wreckin’ machine make.”
lol at the exclusion of techniques. Doubt the folkstyle wrestling…doesn’t mean much to me cause the more doubters mean the less knowledge. [/B]
Care to try that one in English?
Originally posted by unkokusai
Care to try that one in English?
No?
Ranges
There are four primary ranges in fighting (some break this up into more, but these are the logical divisions, IMO);
Kick range
Punch range
Clinch, elbow, in-fighting range
and
Ground fighting
Any serious Martial Artist will follow a training program that addresses each of these ranges, even if one is your most devistating. A lot of schools, particularly traditional ones do not nessisarily address all of them, if not, start building your own program and see what you can discover about each range.
Originally posted by unkokusai
No?
I see.
Cant speak for all Traditional styles
In the case of old school KF ground fighting is addressed in a different manner than what is taught in grappling schools.
Take ju jitstu for instance, (please correct me if I’m wrong) but my observation is that they use attack/counter attack methodology. For certain attacks there are specific counters.
In contrast a KF practioners do not train with this methodology particularly the advanced practioners. The basics of KF should have familiarized the practioner with body mechanics as well as some techniques to illustrate possibilities. The result should be an individual style that allows improvisation without effort, regardless of the range in which the fight takes place.
One other note:
KF technique when it comes to grappling do not hinge on the appendages. They may pull on ribs or do windpipe grabs and such.
Thinking about if fights go to the ground or not, as well as thinking about the % of them and who trains what all adds up to limited thinking.
Martial arts is not about limited thinking, I would say before you train anything you need to retrain your thinking.
Take ju jitstu for instance, (please correct me if I’m wrong) but my observation is that they use attack/counter attack methodology. For certain attacks there are specific counters.
Okay, you’re wrong. It’s true that many traditional styles drill basic techniques and principles quite alot, but this is nothing new really. Boxers hit the heavy and the speed bag, shadow box, and do light sparring. Karateka learn basic punches, blocks and kicks, hit the makiwara etc. Wing Chun guys practice thier basic punches and kicks, chi sao, wooden dummy etc. I think you get the picture.
The basics of KF should have familiarized the practioner with body mechanics as well as some techniques to illustrate possibilities. The result should be an individual style that allows improvisation without effort, regardless of the range in which the fight takes place.
Same exact thing for traditional jujutsu. The training methodolgy moves from basic material, to more advanced applications, to improvisation through fluency. It’s the one thing you can count on every martial art doing the same way because it’s how humans are biologically wired to learn a new skill.
Does your school practice applications from the forms? Are there any take downs or throws in your forms? How about Chin-Na locking techniques to unbalance. Surely there are sweeps and such.
If you practice applying these techniques and having them done to you, you should have some experience going to the ground and grounding someone else. Grappling does not just tech how to do a take down but also how to not be taken down.
If not you should deffinatley cross train with some grapplers in your area. Also San Shou has good closing/jamming/clinching and take downs and should provide a good realistic feel as to what will and will not work for you.
As for my self, I have seen fights not go to the ground and have been in a few (unfortunately) that have not gone to the ground, but on average most I’ve wittnessed or had the misfortune to be involed in have either gone to the ground completely or one person going the ground.
Fightin’…
It is true that most fights end up on the ground. Probably something like 80% of them. I don’t know about the > than 90% range often cited by ground gamers. If you added the fact that often the victor and loser will end up in a clinch, like a double headlock while on your knees (turtle position), with one cat being pretty beaten, or if one guy goes to his knees from being staggered or KO’d, then I guess that that figure of 90% can be correct.
I do know that about 99% of fights start on your feet. If you know how to keep it there then you may never have to worry about advanced ground fighting strategies. Learning to sprawl or using tactics like the cross-face (blade of the forearm brace), countering shoots with flying knees, meeting a low tackle with a modifed Naihanchi stance crouch and push, using guillotines and underhooks- so on, is the key to learning to keep the fight standing. You must train these techs real time, starting at half-speed then working up to the full bum rush.
I think if you wrestled as a kid, played a lot of football, did Judo or BJJ then you have an advantage in the rasslin’ deptartment. Just as with the pure strikers though, pure grapplers are at a distinct disadvantage on the street because you do want to keep street fights on your feet as much as possible. Being well rounded in fighting and life, with one area of expertise, should be everyone’s aim. If it isn’t then you don’t understand what it is to “CYA” or Cover Your A$$.
Keep it up, the training and the fighting. Remember easy chokes you can do with your hands, especially against an untrained street fighter. In the first scenario I mentioned, where you are on the ground in a double head lock, remember that it is easier in that instance to just reach around with your hand and effect a blood choke with your fingers. Much easier than trying to choke someone out with a headlock.
Go train… The right way!
Ground fighting is still fighting…
Okay, I will share something that will perhaps show some perspective on some things that involve real fighting.
My background is karate originally 3yrs. I now train wing chun and taiji. I pretty much just train CMA now. A while back ago (about a year or maybe even more) I was getting really into my wing chun and wanted to test it out. I knew a guy who did BJJ and had several years of it. He was naturally a real aggressive guy too. I sparred him, and the first time we fought I got my A$$ kicked. I didn’t know how to handle ground stuff and since we were friends I did not use any hard knees and elbows and throat grabs etc. Which in turn limited me and I got owned pretty much.
Here is the thing about fighting. There is ring fighting with rules and regulations and weight classes etc etc. There is real fighting that has no rules. I was not about to toss an elbow to my friends head, that has too high risk or a bad injury on him. Many times when he would shoot me (its a take down move he kept referring to) I had some opportunities to attack him as he came in. Whether or not these attacks would be very effective I am not totally sure of because I did not try them, but I have confidence that ina real situation it would hurt someone badly.
After fighting him a while I started to be able to adapt and it was harder for him to take me down. On my feet I was way quicker than him and my hand techniques were superior to his (thats what I train).
In the end I kinda came to the conclusion that there is no long range fighting (kicking) there is no trapping range, there is no clench, there is no grappling, there is no ground fighting, there is only fighting.
Its all fighting no matter what range or position you are in. So I just train to fight now in all situations. I apply what I know when its necessary and what I don’t know I learn from experience from sparring others.
However, you must also realize in sparring I dont do any neck chops, elbows to the head, finger jabs, or grab flesh. In a real fight I would have no problem doing this if I needed to.
The key is to just train and build attributes and do not be scared to face it. Have confidence in your style and technique and do not be affraid to get hit you can’t always control the situation and you can’t always block what comes in at you. Don’t be affraid of grapplers they are not invincible and they feel pain. Unless they are uber tough, but then again those guys are hard to beat reguardless of how they fight. I may not be the best ground fighter out there (I mean fighter) but I can definately handle myself a lot better.
In a real fight situation IMHO, ground fighting is kind of pointless. I have not seen a one on one fight since grade school, its always been mutliple people vs multiple people and in those situations I would rather be on my feet.
The following website has the most compelling argument I’ve ever seen explaining why street fights so often end up on the ground. Serious stuff, check it out:
I have confidence that ina real situation it would hurt someone badly.
Worst kind of confidence to have.
Originally posted by Merryprankster
Worst kind of confidence to have.
I am pretty sure a full force elbow would hurt just about anybody, but I don’t see it as a guaranteed knock out or anything. I have met a few people who can take stuff like though, so I see your point.
Re: Ground fighting is still fighting…
Originally posted by Gangsterfist
since we were friends I did not use any hard knees and elbows and throat grabs etc. Which in turn limited me and I got owned pretty much. I was not about to toss an elbow to my friends head, that has too high risk or a bad injury on him. Whether or not these attacks would be very effective I am not totally sure
in sparring I dont do any neck chops, elbows to the head, finger jabs, or grab flesh.
In other words you will very likely get your ass kicked unless you employ ‘techniques’ that you have no idea that could actually pull off when you need to. That sounds great. No wonder you are so confident.
Re: Re: Ground fighting is still fighting…
Originally posted by unkokusai
In other words you will very likely get your ass kicked unless you employ ‘techniques’ that you have no idea that could actually pull off when you need to. That sounds great. No wonder you are so confident.
True, I have hardly ever used some things I train in sparring because of the risk level. A few times people have gotten hurt (including myself, took and elbow to the chin once and sent me on the ground real quick). OTOH, some of them I have used in a real fight and they seemed to work okay. For the most part a good elbow will stop the guy coming at you. It may not be a knock out, but it probably will effect them. If it doesn’t then you probably won’t win the fight anyways. Some people are just tougher than you. If it seemed I was over confident, let me correct myself. I am confident techniques like that will work if trained properly and executed properly when needed. That is of course if you can pull it off.
I am just basing things off experience. There is no need to start an argument over it. If you think otherwise please share your experiences and your training.
Re: Re: Re: Ground fighting is still fighting…
Originally posted by Gangsterfist
[B]
I am just basing things off experience. There is no need to start an argument over it. . [/B]
Well, if you’re gonna be all reasonable 'n ****, just forget it!:mad:
Originally posted by Samurai Jack
[B]The following website has the most compelling argument I’ve ever seen explaining why street fights so often end up on the ground. Serious stuff, check it out:
http://www.matbattle.com/ [/B]
Sadly shakes head, feeling degraded for every time a fight has gone to the ground
A friend of mine competed in kick boxing for years, so he has good solid striking skills. When he first looked at BJJ a couple years ago he went to a seminar with someone who making the rounds with his students. They were easy friendly people so he felt OK working with them.
They did a bunch of techniques and then had the people in the seminar try different attacks. He was allowed to strike. he figured he could hook somone before they took him down. He said it didnt work well at all. He tried knees and elbows with the students and had the same results.
When a person shoots to take you down he uses timing, if it was easy to elbow or knee someone to stop it you would see it at UFC and the other NHB events.
As far as fighting in the streets, you prob will not run across a trained fighter in the streets. They usually dont start fights. If you train hard and realistically you will have an advantage over the average schmuck out there.
Train hard, train long and train realistically
DK
“if it was easy to elbow or knee someone to stop it you would see it at UFC and the other NHB events.”
Im not one to say anything about “deadly techniques”, but an elbow to the back of the head is easy, high percentage KO, but its not allowed in the UFC or NHB because a hard strike to the base of the skull can cause blindness.