Neither is competition and only one was fighting.
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1197028] And lemme tell ya, almost all of them involve combatants with no skill whatsoever. That’s one of the fundamental issues I’ve always had with the ol’ “won’t work on the street” argument. You’d be amazed what kind of stupid crap works on the street because many street brawlers can’t even throw a basic combo. We, as martial artists, tend to look at combat from a more critical, tactical perspective. We imagine the worse-case scenario - facing a trained fighter. [/QUOTE]
I’ve spent many years in DengFeng and enjoy exploring the seedy side of town. Everyone there is trained as you well know. You would be surprised at the street brawls there… Its just as stupid. Its no different. As soon as it really kicks off it doesn’t look skilled. Just a brawl. I think people forget their training and their instinct takes over. I think MA technique only becomes important if someone can keep control of their mind and emotion first.
With combat of any kind, I think the winner is the one who chooses the rules.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1197053]Neither is competition and only one was fighting.[/QUOTE]
I couldn’t find a tournament GIF under 3 MB. But you certainly know what I’m talking about.
Atheletes competing against one another at a high level, with great intensity, is one thing.
Fighting is something else entirely, and requires very little actual skill.
Think you need to train 4 hours a day to be a “fighter”? Then check out World Star Hip Hop sometime.
Why do something if it has no demonstrable value?
[QUOTE=MightyB;1197057]Why do something if it has no demonstrable value?[/QUOTE]
Beauty is it’s own excuse for being, my friend.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1197056]I couldn’t find a tournament GIF under 3 MB. But you certainly know what I’m talking about.
Atheletes competing against one another at a high level, with great intensity, is one thing.
Fighting is something else entirely, and requires very little actual skill.
Think you need to train 4 hours a day to be a “fighter”? Then check out World Star Hip Hop sometime.[/QUOTE]
Ah, I see.
Yes, in terms of degree of difficulty I would say:
Brawling-Fighting-Competiton
In the old days:
Brawling-fighting-duelling/challenge match
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1197059]Ah, I see.
Yes, in terms of degree of difficulty I would say:
Brawling-Fighting-Competiton
In the old days:
Brawling-fighting-duelling/challenge match[/QUOTE]
First nuts. Second strength. Third skill.
It ain’t rocket science.
Good discussion subject. Just hope it won’t soon turn into “TCMA is more than just fighting” argument.
For those who said that fighting is easy, I would suggest the following test.
- Get 10 training partners.
- Try 10 rounds sparring/wrestling on each opponent.
- Try to only use your single best move (Whether that will be hip throw, single leg, foot sweep, hook punch, side kick, …).
- Record your result (either take down or knock down).
10 guys x 10 rounds = 100 rounds. Among your 100 rounds, if your best move can score
- above 50%, you are average.
- above 75%, you are good.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1197058]Beauty is it’s own excuse for being, my friend.[/QUOTE]
If that really is the case -
Then I strongly suggest the non-martial practice of Yoga
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1197062]Good discussion subject. Just hope it won’t soon turn into “TCMA is more than just fighting” argument.
[/QUOTE]
Hey guys,
I’m gonna spare you the whole ‘TCMA is more than fighting’ argument because I know I do that too much.
But it really seems to me some of you really want MA to be all about Competition. But to be honest, in my experience a real fight is rarely a competition, its a foregone conclusion. All of us love a close match. Thats what competition is all about. But with real combat no-one wants to gamble their lives on a close match.
So often MA is all about changing the rules of the game so it is not a fair match, so there is no competition. They win before they even think about actually fighting. And that is what separates MA and competition.
And its not about ‘too deadly for the ring’ techniques… Its something else, attitude and strategy and psychology and experience and intent and many other things. But it can’t be summed up by high percentage moves.
the last fight i got into i used my skateboard. fighting isnt about fair, its about winning. what ever you constitute as a win is the only thing that matters. walking away safe, defeating the person attacking you, getting the jump for revenge, saving someone else from harm…what ever the ‘win’ is, is all that matters. thats why weapons trump most.
[QUOTE=Lucas;1197066]the last fight i got into i used my skateboard. fighting isnt about fair, its about winning. what ever you constitute as a win is the only thing that matters. walking away safe, defeating the person attacking you, getting the jump for revenge, saving someone else from harm…what ever the ‘win’ is, is all that matters. thats why weapons trump most.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. The prerequisite for winning is not always to destroy the opponent. I think it is important for a MA to reflect this.
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1197006] Or even if they receive no MA training at all. There are many examples of the latter.[/QUOTE]
I would consider street thuggin to be a valid training method for fighting(not a good way, not nice, but valid none the less). You don’t have to learn any style, just practice what experience has shown you to be effective. There are lots of people like that. It would be incorrect to say they have no MA training at all. Nobody who has never thrown a punch or even wrestled with their friends is going to be a good fighter. NONE!
Yeah some people are more naturally inclined, but that doesn’t mean they can fight from day one. These people who are naturals pick it up faster once they start learning, but if that learning process never occurs, they will not be good fighters.
Interesting, RenDaHai
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1197054]I’ve spent many years in DengFeng and enjoy exploring the seedy side of town. Everyone there is trained as you well know. You would be surprised at the street brawls there… Its just as stupid. Its no different. As soon as it really kicks off it doesn’t look skilled. Just a brawl. I think people forget their training and their instinct takes over. I think MA technique only becomes important if someone can keep control of their mind and emotion first.[/QUOTE] You know, I saw a few street fights and challenges in Dengfeng when I was there too. I saw one that involved two kids wrestling over a dust pan that went from your typical push-and-shove to something out of a Jackie Chan movie. Blew me away. Perhaps that was a freak occurrence, but I’ll never forget it.
I’ve been involved in a few textbook takedowns, which are very reaffirming. There’s nothing more satisfying than getting an application to work in the real world. Mind you, the volunteer medical stuff I do is a little different because we aren’t out to hurt the patient. Quite the opposite. They can hurt us but we aren’t supposed to hurt them. That changes things a lot.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1197064]it is not a fair match, [/QUOTE]
That’s why we need to learn a lot of dirty tricks and also try to protect us from others to use dirty tricks on us.
- You shake hand with someone.
- His monster grip almost crashed your hand.
- You tap out and he lets go your hand (He feels good about it).
- You say that you don’t believe he can do it again.
- Next time he tries to shake your hand, you use your palm heel to push on his thumb and break it.
Is this fair? Who’s fault is it to cause the broken thumb?
- One guy comes to you and asks for a challenge fight.
- You say OK, jump in, and take him down.
Is this fair?
- You serve tea to someone on dinner table.
- Suddently, you throw hot tea at his face, jump in, and beat him up.
Is this fair?
If one is not prepared for those kind of dirty tricks, is that his problem or your problem?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1197102]- You shake hand with someone.
- His monster grip almost crashed your hand.
- You tap out and he lets go your hand.
- You say that you don’t believe he can do it again.
- Next time he tries to shake your hand, you use your palm heel to push on his thumb and break his thumb.
Is this fair? Who’s fault is to cause the broken thumb?[/QUOTE]
It’s his fault for letting you tap out! But no, it isn’t “fair play”. But most fights are very very UNfair. Fair has nothing to do with surviving a violent encounter. Fair play may even get you hurt. If you drop him and let him stand back up to box some more and he drops you, that’s your own fault. You should finish or take the opportunity to get outta there. Finishing can be anything from caving in his skull to binding his hands and everything in between.
That being said, there are times when showing mercy is the best alternative. It may prevent future action against you. On the flipside, they may just come back and triple tap your ass. Two to center mass and one more in the head for good measure.
[QUOTE=Syn7;1197104]It’s his fault for letting you tap out! But no, it isn’t “fair play”. But most fights are very very UNfair. Fair has nothing to do with surviving a violent encounter. Fair play may even get you hurt. If you drop him and let him stand back up to box some more and he drops you, that’s your own fault. You should finish or take the opportunity to get outta there. Finishing can be anything from caving in his skull to binding his hands and everything in between.
That being said, there are times when showing mercy is the best alternative. It may prevent future action against you. On the flipside, they may just come back and triple tap your ass. Two to center mass and one more in the head for good measure.[/QUOTE]
Thats the real trick isn’t it.
You can escalate the violence and that gives you a bigger chance of winning. But it also puts you in more danger, and on dodgy legal and moral ground. There are many consiquences to each action.
If you choose never to be the one to escalate, to change the rules, then you will always be at the disadvantage.
It means you have to be a great judge of the situation… its not really something that can be taught so easily huh…
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1197107]You can escalate the violence and that gives you a bigger chance of winning. But it also puts you in more danger, [/QUOTE]
Oneday I asked my teacher, “What’s the best way to prevent people from challenge you day by day?” He said, “If you can build up bad reputation that whoever challenges you would get serious injury, nobody would want to take chance to challenge you after that.” He also said, “The day that you stepped on the path of TCMA, you truly didn’t have much choice.”
He was talking about his generation in China. I’m not sure it applies in our generation outside China. What’s your thought?
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1197091]You know, I saw a few street fights and challenges in Dengfeng when I was there too. I saw one that involved two kids wrestling over a dust pan that went from your typical push-and-shove to something out of a Jackie Chan movie. Blew me away. Perhaps that was a freak occurrence, but I’ll never forget it.
[/QUOTE]
Hehe. Oh yeah, I’m talking about the drunken brawls outside the KTVs and so called nightclubs. (its often school coaches). They are fast and powerful and agile, but they totally degenerate into mindless violence. They always go for a bottle or stool or something. Dissapointing.
The school playground fights are awesome. The kids really go at it and it does go full on movie style. But its not quite the same, its missing the violence. Great fun to watch them though. Happened every day at Tagou. YOu get to see some crazy moves actually connect. Seriously they pull out Xuanzi and stuff. Awesome.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1197064]
But it really seems to me some of you really want MA to be all about Competition. But to be honest, in my experience a real fight is rarely a competition, its a foregone conclusion. All of us love a close match. Thats what competition is all about. But with real combat no-one wants to gamble their lives on a close match.
[/QUOTE]
No, my point in bringing up this discussion has nothing to do with competition. The point I’m trying to make is using the most basic skills, techniques, whatever - really being able to use those. Not theoretical, not just knowing the text book “application” with one of your compliant buddies or students - No, it’s about knowing and using, and being able to use the techniques from your system. That should be the goal. With a “pfft fighting is easy” attitude, people simply miss the point - to the ki master who thought he was chi blasting the room, to him fighting was easy because he thought he could use super mental bullets - one MMAer newbie beyotch slapped him on TV because of that mistake. I’ve met many people that thought they were studying martial arts, thought they knew martial arts, but they knew nothing because they could not apply any of the techniques they were training to a non-compliant person. What’s the use in that? It means you are worse than a white belt to me. I’m not talking about the old, or the infirmed. I’m talking about young, able bodied men and women that could not do a basic wrist escape even though they thought they knew chin na, or do a simple trap on a fist to cuffs exchange. What’s the friggin point? They of course believed fighting was easy and were somehow above the fray because they were martial artists. as my Si Gung would say “Lop Sop”.