I know there’s Shuai-Chiao but what about drunken monkey? Because all the techniques my sifu was showing me from that style seemed to be grappling and takedowns, and it was all extremely effective(on the guy I was sparring with anyway…). So wouldn’t it make sense for more kung fu people to learn it, to fill in the lack of ground fighting in their art with out having to resort to X training with a non-kung fu art?
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I’m researching Shuai Chiao, and even Dog Fist boxing (just for fun on internet and different places) but I haven’t seen anything yet that resembles the groundfighting of say BJJ or judo.
I’m not harping on those systems, but I know them, and know they work for me since I’ve used em. 
But I am seriously interested in finding out some Chinese systems that may have ground holds, transitions, etc.
Haven’t found anything yet.
Ryu
“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”
Yeah I forgot, Drunken Monkey is taught right down the street from me, next to the Shuai Chaio school. There’s also a lil’ Shaolin temple, just in case I need more Kung Fu stuff to “fill in the gaps”
Who knows, maybe Drunken Monkey grappling can be superior to wrestling, and bjj, but the chances of me finding a school in Las Vegas (or even Nevada) are slim to none, and if I do accidentally stumble onto one, the chances that they are A) Legitimate, and B) train as hard as other bjj and grappling schools, are even worse. I would love to learn Shau Chiao throwing, and I would love to study in depth Chin Na applications with someone who’s very knowledgable on the subject. It ain’t gonna happen unless I uproot my family and start “walking the earth” on a quest for the greatest hand to hand skills. 
To me it just makes sense to cross train with other styles that are more easily accessible. Besides, it’s not like learning bjj will taint my skills. Even if I didn’t want to learn bjj, I would at least try to train with bjj guys, so I can develop my kung fu skills to defend against ground fighters, and wrestlers.
It just so happens that I approached bjj and wrestling with the former attitude (learn about it, and how to counter/defeat it), but while being exposed to it, I totally got hooked with the style, and I really love the principles, and techniques within. My core style is, and always will be Northern Shaolin (cause I got some mean kicks, and my stand up agility have improved because of it), and I always thought the chin na that I picked up from Praying Mantis, and Shaolin would be more than enough for me to utilize in any close quarters situation. Because I approached bjj with an open mind (like our Sifu drilled into us :)), I found much more than I was looking for. and now I have a better understanding of fighting on the ground, or how to avoid it in general. I’m also much more proficient in trapping/clinching range, as well as striking from the ground. Chin na helped me with bjj, but bjj has helped my Chin na even more.
Jaguar Wong
Cool.
You’ll be a better fighter because of it.
Ryu
“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”
Ryu,
Yeah, maybe someday… I’m just happy that I don’t have to stand there eating punches anymore, because my infighting, and kicks aren’t working. I now have the option to take the fight to the ground, and neutralize their strikes. The only problem is that I get tapped a lot doing that. I’m still learning, though, so hopefully my “play book” will be diverse enough to let me control my opponents/situation. My stand up will always be my focus, though. I like the option of switching ranges, or escaping…
Jaguar Wong
grappling
I believe just about all systems have some sort of grappling. When I refer to grappling I am referring to such things as Chi Na. IMHO, I believe whether you choose to use these locks in a stand up position or on the ground the principles of joint manipulation doesn’t change much. I believe the only thing that really changes is the power base or leverage and where you get it, this obviously changes since you are not on your feet or rooted. Once again, as I have said in other post there are only so many ways to punch, kick, block etc, well I believe the same is true w/grappling. For example, people constantly say there isn’t any grappling in Wing Chun, well I disagree. And no it isn’t because my Sifu or someone added it later. I again repeat, if I can use grappling (Chi Na) techniques or principles while standing up in Wing Chun, why then shouldn’t I use them when taken to the ground. I get really aggravated when I here people say Kung Fu doesn’t have ground fighting in it and if yours does then it was added recently. I think the people that say this are missing the point. Just because we don’t shoot in for the takedown immediately and/or don’t use the principles in the exact same way isn’t to say it isn’t there. Though I do think many schools don’t take the real time to train Chi Na from the ground enough, or even what to do when taken down to the ground. I have a hard time believing that our forefathers of Kung Fu never thought about ground fighting or felt they didn’t need it because they were to good on thier feet. Maybe I am wrong, but I don’t believe that just in the past 10 or so years people realized ground fighting was effective or needed. I heard a saying yesterday on the radio, the guy said “if I thought about it today, somebody else thought about yesterday.” Sorry, just venting. 
Don’t get his hopes up, Ryu. He’ll never get better, because he has learned too many bad habits from bad direct-to-video MA movies. For example he like to start every fight by running at his opponent with both hands up ready to smash downward. And he telegraphs all of his spinning kicks with a huge wind-up.
Nothing wrong with venting
azwingchun,
I totally agree that any system with standing grappling should be able to use it while on the ground. But there are some things that need to be addressed when on the ground, though. The feet can come into play much easier now
Styles that may have had a ground fighting system, but lost it throughout the years doesn’t help much when the practitioner is thrust into that scenario. Even if the system was “uncovered” by a dilligent practitioner, it still doesn’t compare to training with people (or a style) that have been using the ground fighting components of a style in a much more live and direct way for years (or even generations, like the Gracies) already.
In all my kung fu years, I have found many grappling and wrestling elements in the style, but that didn’t make me proficient in their use. I just knew they were in there, and practicing them with others that didn’t know about them really didn’t do much for me to sharpen those skills. It always took another practioner from another style (most of the time it was wrestling), with a lot of experience to show me how to use the stuff from my own style properly.
But with the whole thing about bjj, I haven’t found many elements that resemble the in depth approach to ground fighting that this style has always had. I mean it’s cool to learn some Chin Na to take an opponent down, and subdue them, but to me it was also necessary to learn how to fight from “the bottom”, in order to get control of the situation, and get back to my feet. If I can slap an armbar on someone from the guard, then that lets me know that I can break an arm, and get up quickly if I even needed to. If I can sweep someone and take a full mount, or knee on stomach, then I know I can get to a better position if there are other factors that I am worried about (like his buddies).
We don’t always have a choice how the fight starts, and if some thug decides it’s gonna start on the ground with him on top, then I would prefer to have skills that I developed by actually practicing techniques in that situation, not based on some theory that what I learned standing up, SHOULD also work on the ground.
Another thing, it doesn’t matter to me where I learn these skills. I don’t care if the paper trail of masters can fill a file cabinet, if it works (not if someone tells me it works, I mean if I can get it to work), then I’m gonna use it. I don’t give a crap if I developed my ground fighting skills from Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Drunken Monkey, or even the Tae Bo Grappling series. If I can get it to work, then I have more faith in it
Jaguar Wong
Tigerstyle:
Actually I run at you with a loaded “Double Mongolian Chop” just to set you up for a big round house to the leg. Just like my hero Sakuraba.
My spin kicks are set up with the “whipping pimp slaps” that I learned from Van Damme movies. They don’t flail and it’s not a huge windup! :mad:
Jaguar Wong
azwingchun
So do you think a bjj guy could become as good as a boxer if he decided to use his bjj principles and theories standing up?
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Grappling…amazing.
We grapple after we spar and it’s really a plus in our training system. Ehausting at that as well.
Let s just say I’m not “mute” if ever I fall on the floor in a confrontaionl attack/defence.
“..the more you sweat, the more you know yourself…”
Jaguar Wong
I completely agree with everything you said, it sounds like you and I come from the same school of thought. And I also agree that my grappling is not the same as maybe the GJJ guys, though I do have faith in what I use, just a different way to the same results I guess. Though I have always felt this way, even when I was very young I felt what was possible on my feet was possible on the ground (for the most part). I never seperated what I learned, I just adapted it even though I may not have been taught to do it that way. And at the same time never felt I was bastardizing my art. I honestly feel that many students today as well as the past, just follow thier teachers and don’t look between the lines of thier arts, and miss out on what thier art has to offer. 
BJJ, Sambo, Catch Wrestling - these arts really evolved ground fighting. While some stand up skills (Qin na) might apply on the ground, good ground fighting followed a different evoloutionary path.
The question you ask yourself, is do I want to stumble through the discovery phase or learn from people who already have a few generations experience?
This why I am looking at Sambo. It fits my Shuai Chiao, and for those 1 in 10 (average) fights I do not finish with a good throw, I’ll now have a skill set that fits right in.
We need to free our minds, and look beyond stylistic predujice.
Just food for thought…
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
Yeah, Monkeyslap. That’s basically why I decided to join a Judo club in addition to doing my Chang taijiquan.
Principles remain the same, but positioning changes so drastically (your back becomes your legs, your legs become arms) that you may as well get the skinny on how to adapt principles to this new positioning from someone who knows all about it.
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama
striking stops chin na stops throwing stops striking stops chin na stops throwing
I’m glad everyones talking about this. I’m lucky enough to have an encyclopedic teacher who teaches shuai chaio, chin na, monkey boxing and has studied western wrestling. I found shuai chaio to be a lot like the judo I’ve studied but much more viscous since it hasn’t been turned into a sport. There’s a big emphasis and really slaming the guy to the ground and making sure he lands head first with his arms tied up if you can plus we’re tought to stike the whole way into the throw. We’re taught everything stand up can be used on the ground with some modification and shuai chaio cernatly has groung fighting in the ciriculum. interestingly enough I have been told that it was sometimes thought to be dishonorable to be taken to the ground so some styles would emphasize techniques against being taken to the ground over actually ground fighting. Dog stylist will bite you too. I’m not sure about all wing chun schools/clans but I have heard of ones that have hardly any chin na and no throws. I think itss very likely they have lost that aspect of their style. My sifu had some long time wing chun people come to him learn his chi na because it wasn’tin there system. They didn’t have much chi gong to speak of either. Do you studie in tuscon AZWingChun or up north?
CanadianBadAss
I do believe that if there is something present in your art, even if it isn’t the main objective then yes. I believe it is all in how you train. Is there punching and kicking in BJJ? Yes, I think some off these BJJ guys have done this already.
dooder
Actually, I train here in Phoenix. Where in Phoenix do you train? I bet you I know? LOL
[This message was edited by azwingchun on 10-19-01 at 05:08 PM.]
azwingchun
I’m pretty sure they didn’t just apply their bjj principles to striking. They most likely did some X training with kickboxing or something…
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CanadianBadAss
I couldn’t tell you how the Gracie family art is put together or what is originally in thier arsenal. Though I do know that sometime ago I had meet up with some guys who did JJ and they had some striking in thier arts. Though they weren’t power knock out strikes. So, I believe if these guys wanted to put more emphasis on striking, sure they could accompolish these skills.
Different animals.
I totally disagree with this statement. You can’t use 90% of the stuff standing that you can on the ground. You cannot use mount, guard, side control, north/south, arm bar between the legs and all the variations thereof, a majority of chokes, key lock, not to mention leg locks (how the heck do you think you can get a leg lock while you and your opponent are standing?). And those groundfighting techs that you can use while standing are much less effective when standing. Same goes for using your standing techs while on the ground. Each of these areas has its own very specific principles.
Study