Earth Dragon,
You are way off track. I’m not trying to be hostial at all. I am interested in your Qi Gong but not the PM but due to the distance between us I have held back posting that interest unless your teacher makes it out this way at all. Please don’t read anything into my writings. Most of the time I have little time to post and the writings may seem short. However, I will be direct with you if I feel we start dancing around an issue. The Master topic for instance. In your profile you use the words master. This is ok and I have no problem with it but it is contradictory to what you posted above. Perhaps “teacher” would be a better word for master. I studied with a qi gong “master” (my word) who said he would rather be known as teacher. Please call him teacher, he said. I think perhaps this is better since as a teacher we only are older and have more knowledge than our students. This does not mean we are better but it also leaves room to learn more. I would always rather position myself to learn more. Your qi gong ‘teacher’ sounds like a great person.
The original question still stands. I have always been thought that practicing external martial arts (kung fu) would inhibit advancement in qi gong. Since I see from your bio that you do both and as such you are in a great position to help me understand. I would be greatly interested in your qi gong teacher’s position on the subject. Can a person who practices both reach a high level in qi gong or does practicing kung fu inhibit advancement in qi gong?
As far as Do Mo goes, yes, it is a muscle and tendon change exercise but there is only slight tension for each move otherwise the qi and blood cannot move. I still classify this as internal. I see Kung Fu where the cardiovascular system is worked at a high rate as external. Or running, biking, swimming, boxing, all I see as external.
One other comment. There is nothing wrong to argue a point. This is how we learn. One person offers one view and the other person offers another. It is through this dialog that people learn. It is how I learn and I’ve often found truth in people I argue with and I then hold on to those truths.
I hope I have better stated myself here. Please let me know if I haven’t.
My sincere apologies, and quite frankly glad I was way off track. I was hoping to express to each other our knowldge and understanding and not get into a internet finger pointing contest.
As far as the master thing goes yes I refer to my two teachers as masters.When I am speaking to a third party. They are both chinese and learned in china, they both hold over 30 years of knowledge and both are from famous lineages, and have reached higher levels in their art than anyone else living today.
I guess this would classify them as masters in american terms but again one prefers not to be called anything and the other takes pride in the title. I guess I still feel like “master” means you have mastered every technique in your art, but again it can be used to describe a shrfu’s teacher instead of saying shiyi.
However I will be honest and say that in advertising my school I do perfer to say I studied with a chinese “master” since it is good for seperation from money making mcdojo’s that advertise school owners as ex marines who learned hand to hand combat and now teach these fighting taticts to the public. So maybe I am a bit guilty of using the double standard of the term “master” But again it seperates me from the classic americanized mentality.
To touch on external inhibiting the chi. I still find that it gives my art balance. I have found that my chi feels stronger when I am physically in shape like days that I practice forms. Now that is not to say that it is just because of the loosness or warmming up of the body, though it might be but again it is my belief that you should train both aspects of the arts internal as well as external again like yin & yang. Their has to be a balance of nei chi and wei chi.
To limit yourself by practicing only part of your art I feel would not serve it justice. Just as practicing on one side of the body is not recommended thus out of balance. I am not sure what level that it is you wish to obtain but for me the ability to heal or aliveate pain without physically touching my patients is a level that I never thought I would reach, granted their are many higher levels in the art of qigong but my teacher says that you can only make your chi so strong. The higher levels depend on outside forces, i.e god, cosmos, universal chi etc etc.
You also said this “I see Kung Fu where the cardiovascular system is worked at a high rate as external.”
Then please explain Tai chi chuan! This is considered a internal art yet I sweat profusley when I play the set a couple times and my heart rate reaches a cardiovascular level quite quickly. So I would have to say walk the circle of bagua 200x and ask your self is this an internal or an external excersise?So I dont think it is that black and white, for things look internal can be external and visa versa.
Last but not least , I truly agree with you about disagreeing! actualy I have a few times agreed to disagree. I was not saying that opinons wernt valid and that I am right, for in my 20 years of learning I am just starting to understand the chinese and thier teachings so I am just a student myself. But I have had some questionable conversations with people on these boards that ask you a question only to say that your answer is wrong!! I did not mean to catogorize you in that group and again I am sorry! I am actually enjoying disscussing this with you , I just wish more people would respond for a lot of times I have a hard time expressing my understanding, knowledge and thoughts into words…
You have made some valid points which I’ll have to think about. Thanks. If you would like to add another opinion to the mix I’d still be interested in what your Qi Gong teacher says about the subject.
Also, is she ever in the LA area of California? I’d like to meet her if possible.
If not, perhaps she know someone of equal skill in this area. Perhaps a reference?
I will ask her toady how she feels about external training.
She has never been to any other cities except san Fransisco where we met and buffalo whee she now lives with me. As I said beore she doesnt speak a lot of english so communication with people is diffacult.
As far as other qigong masters she reconises a few in the US but most are in it for the money and fame, and some just to teach the self health aspect and not teach to the point of doctor.
I did invite a qigong master to host a seminar for my students which I found to have pretty good skills and lives in the mountains 2 hours outside LA if you like I will give you his number.
Wow ED. I didn’t know you were a Master. When did Grandmaster Sun give you the keys to the system and nurture your growth to that level? You must truly have absorbed the qintessence of 8 Step Praying Mantis. Are you considered too old to fight now? Or are you gonna take a crack at NHB. All the other Masters have been fighters and you said you were too. Make a name for kung fu. I think you owe it to the anscestors.
When did I ever say I was a master? You crack me up sometimes I find it hard to call anyone a master if you read my posts. Actually I consider myself only a student. I think everybody should for we are all still and always be learning. Once you stop learning your ego will surpass your knowledge and you will end up like some people out there that know it all without knowing anything.
By the way who appointed james shyun as grandmaster? Master Wei died in 1984 so who and why does james shyun call himself grand master? Oh let me guess becuse he appointed kevin loftus to become a master!!! Give me a break I have known kevin for a long time and I am sure he will agree with me that he is no master. But things fly around the federation all the time. Do you know sifu dean? He was mine and kevin’s and everybody’s first teacher he was appointed “master dean” and the US representitive head of the federation, then he and james shyun got into a fight and he told him that he couldnt be master anymore and then gave the tittle to kevin laster year. Come on now even you gotta think that somthing fishy is going on with that!
Hi Bill,
Do you remember Cui Lu Yi? Ms. Cui’s cultivation of Chen and Chi Kung certainly has the qualities we usually assign to a “Master”.. I sometimes fear that we so confine our potential by assigning “names” to it, that it becomes too fragmented.. The form, the name, the system, all become prisons that confine the experience. Personally, i sense that there is simply “Chi”, we cultivate this Chi, we store this Chi.. and, we use this Chi.. Whether internal or external are only different ways of expressing the same thing..
Does dual training affect the Chi cultivation?.. That is the individual’s choice, according to the quality of “intent”. If we choose to believe that there are contradictions in something so simple the basic life-force of Chi, those contradictions will manifest in according to the depth of your beliefs (indoctrinations).. Speaking of “indoctrinations”.. it seems odd to me that some people are so quick to discount modern life as potentially fertile ground for further development of Chi awareness and methodologies.. its not unreasonable to expect that someday a man or woman will emerge from seclusion in some high-rise rent-controlled lair, and astound the fragmented, narrow-minded Chi players with some newly evolved understanding… oops, we probably wouldn’t notice if that person didn’t have the correct lineage, the appropriate title, etc..
Just another perspective from the Far-Side.. <respectful bows to all>
Hi Bob,
No, I never met this woman but heard about her. I heard she practiced qi gong 4 hours a day in the early morning. Is this correct? All I can tell you is what I feel between “Masters” that I have come in contact with. I can tell you definitely a huge difference in feeling between the kung fu master at your school and a qi gong master I have been in contact with. Huge difference. What I see in High level Qi Gong teachers is they do not practice external martial arts (kung fu). Even Earth Dragon’s teacher does not practice external martial arts. So I have to ask why. Does this activity diminish the ability to reach a high level in qi gong?
By the way, ED. Did you have a chance to ask your qi gong teacher this question?
Hi Bill,
First, i would be honored to visit, to experience your friend’s pushing hands.. (the more i get pushed, the more i learn)
Second, and this is based solely on personal opinion born of experience, i sense that the arts, all of them, are complimentary.. that is until someone’s ego feels the need to be superior, to elevate one aspect or another according to personal desire or personal ability. Look at the disharmony based on beliefs that one system is superior or exclusive, do we suppose that was originally intended? i assert that working together to refine our understandings is more desirable than struggling seperately to champion our favorite causes. Of course there are some benefits from competitive comparisons, but fragmentation and exclusivity are not benefits. Ultimately, i envision a “complete” being, internal/external/spiritual/physical.. incredible power, tempered by humane compassion.. We will either evolve into a brotherhood (sisters included) of artists, for the art’s sake, for the sake of our fellow beings.. or, remain in this feudal quagmire of seperate warring states.. look for the common threads in this rich tapestry of Martial Arts..
Simply because the Masters any one of us are exposed to assert the purity of their individual “art”.. does not confer exclusivity as a defining quality, only a personal choice.. Perhaps, there is a “required journey”, where the external evolves into the internal. A close friend and accomplished artist asserts that the arts are complimentary by design.. that we have a responsibility as fellow humans to fix that which we have broken.. whenever i injure someone, i should offer to heal as well.. Balance is not an empty concept..
Be well, look beyond the prison of style and form.. unity is empowering to ALL..
TaiChiBob
Welcome aboard! Your posts are very informative and I look forward to more. I don’t have enough background to really get involved in this thread but as they say, everyone has an opinion. Personally I don’t see how internal and external can be mutually exclusive. It’s all about balance. It’s our western way of thinking that gets in our way. You know, if one is good then 2 are better. If a little internal training is good then total internal training is better? Not true. All sunshine makes a desert.
In woliveri’s defense I can see his point where internal cultivates qi and external expresses qi. On the surface it would appear that one hour of external training would negate one hour of internal training. I don’t believe that to be true although at this point I can’t explain why.
woliveri
Because someone focuses on one area completely it is expected that they would reach the height of success in that area. But that’s not neccessarily a good thing. I say that because I believe going to any extreme is not good. Somewhere along the line some negative factors appear. I base this solely on my belief that everything should be balanced.
Well Bob, (shakes his head) I really don’t know what to say to that. Especially since it has nothing to do with my question. I am not comparing arts. I am asking if training external would diminish the ability to reach a high level in Qi Gong. This is a training question.
woliveri
Most likely to reach the level you want will require so much time there will be none left for external training. Unless you win the lottery and become independently wealthy.
Ok, let me show the question in a different light. Would body building help or hurt your martial arts training. I think this would be easy for you to answer.
This is the same question just sub external ma with body building and martial arts training with qi gong.
The problem here is we have no high level qi gong masters to throw their 2 cents into the mix.
Well I asked my teacher and she was not much help. I say this becuse she is sometimes difficult to ask her simple questions.
I did ask her and she said you do what you like to do its O.K, you want sweet eat sweet your body tell you what you want.
She then said you want quit gungfu? I said no just curious, I could not tell her I was asking for a freind on the internet for she would not understand.
I then asked if most high level qigong masters in china practiced external MA she said some do but use chi for fight not heal , qigong doctors use chi for heal not fight so more powerful for god’s work but up to you..
So I guess that you could say that if training for healing purposes you can have stronger chi than that of martial. Weather is would hinder your abilities I dont think so but as Yen said stronger if used for healing but she didnt say that you cannot do both and reach the same goal, again its up to you.
I believe that is due to the outside forces that come into play when reaching high levels. ie earth’s chi, universal chi and cosmos chi. These levels can only be obtained if you are using the force for good as opposed to evil. That may sound corney but the fight between good and evil happens constantly on a 24-7 365 day basis. So I hope that answers your question, again i dont know what level you are seeking to reach but most high level practioners have been practicing from childhood well into their 50’s several hours a day for their results.
“To me, kung fu practice seems counter productive to qi gong development. Especially for healing”
I think you get to a point in your training where the idea of fighting is no longer relevant. IMHO the higher aspects of true inner power are hard to get if your head is always filled with kicking some butt.
If you practice with this idea in mind, collecting, storing and emitting or managing energy then I think this will change your whole perspective.
It also puts your practice in a different level. These things can be applied for fighting but not necessarily developed with fighting in mind. the first aspect is to fix and help your body and later others.
In answer to your question I would say yes, both are very specific arts that take much time and dedacation to really master.
most will not put in the time, seems it dosn’t have the same alure as kicking butt. something to think on.
The real question that I think should be asked is which one do you think is more useful? which one will really help your life and others around you?
Good post bamboo, I was reading your words in the first paragraph and was going to comment on the fighting part but you touched on what I was going to reply with in your third paragraph…So I would just like to add a little.
Fighting is not always considered and not always a factor in external practice. When we learn to really fight is when we mature to the level of not wanting to. This comes early in our training and is the basic or easiest part of MA, however simply training and keeping your body pysically strong without fighting in mind is still external. even if you are training weapons, I dont think about killing someone or defending myself with a sword but yet practice sword form.
As for reaching high levels and changing your focus I think this happens with age , wisdom and experience. I have changed my objective many times in my years of training and latley have focused on softer internal practice as opposed to hard external. I think that your main reason for starting MA changes with learning and time spent understanding. When I was 20 and fighting full contact I never would have though I would enjoy medical qigong and meditation, but now that is my personal agenda.
So fighting? that is for boxers , the UFC and people that have to prove themselves to themselves…
Does your chi increase faster on good’s side because its on the side of goodness, or because, you yourself are at ease with your conciounce. Could a psycopath become a chimaster and kick everybodies ass. Just curious.
Are you sayin that on the side of Yang, your stronger, and yin is weaker? Seems to contradict yin/yang theory, can you please enlighten me?
If you want to climb high you need a strong ladder, one that will support you well. Then you must anchor it in the ground forcefully so that it can counteract the pressure of the ‘upward’ climb.
In the upward climb of ‘higher level’qi’ practice one’s BODY is the ladder that supports the climb of the spirit. Too many practitioners neglect the condition of their ladder with the common result of illness(physical and psychological) interrupting or corrupting their practice as they reach the more advanced levels. This happens especially to healers because of the ‘exchange’ of qi during sessions.
The care and maintainence of the ladder is done best through a practice that continually strengthens and grounds the body like a good martial art.
Chi doesn’t know good from evil. It is ‘undifferentiated’.It is just that ‘bad’ people tend to hoard their qi while ‘good’ people tend to share. Those that share create ‘space’ inside themselves and nature fills in the spaces, giving them the experience of being filled from ‘outside’.
In the ones that don’t share there tends to be much less space since they’re always holding onto the qi to feel more powerful. Less space = less vacuumn = less experience of nature filling you.
Hi Bill,
I humbly apologize if my posts seemed off topic.. i had intended to use analogy to make a point..
My experience is that too often we are predjudiced by the opinions of others. There seems to be no “natural law” that limits which level of cultivation of Chi is appropriate or counter-appropriate.. Much has been posted in this thread that rings of wisdom gained by experience, rather than wisdom restated.. Fighting as opposed to healing.. internal as opposed to external.. seems to be a distinction of perception..
Here, i will go off topic just a bit. I have been working with some people that have a diferent approach, i hope you don’t mind if i share… Their assertion, and i intuit some basic wisdom, is that the Chi aspect of our lives is a process rather than a container.. They develop/refine methodology for smoothing and maximizing the personal management of this flowing process.. They view the breathing cycle as a pump that pumps Chi through our system.. The quality of Chi is determined by diet, training to clean, strengthen and experience the various subtleties, and, of course, breath training.. here, we get back on topic.. once the system/process is trained and refined one may be perceived as having a great reserve of Chi, when in fact, they are simply good managers of the limitless Chi available to us all.. To capture and contain Chi seems to interupt the process rather than to compliment it.. Chi contained, is Chi stagnated..
So, to address your question, my experience leads me to believe that it is not detrimental to dual train internal/external.. the detriment is to isolate those concepts.. Develop a keen awareness of the Chi itself, of how our bodies manage and maximize its uses.. then, perhaps, we will be able to utilize our Chi for whatever application the situation demands..
Bill, i share in the spirit of improvement, not as a contention.. I am certainly no “Master”, just another Pilgrim on the Path.. i only offer food for thought, not asserting enlightenment..
Be well…
