Early Tanglangquan in Taiwan

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
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The spread of Tanglangquan to Taiwan

In 1949, after losing control of mainland China to the People’s Republic of China in the Chinese civil war, the Republic Of China government under the Kuomingtang leadership of Chiang Kai-shek fled to Taiwan.

Tanglangquan practitioners who fled to Taiwan at this time include:

Wang Songting: qixing tanglangquan
Gao Daosheng: chuanquan tanglangquan
Li Kunshan: meihua tanglangquan
Zhang Dekui: meihua tanglangquan
Wei Xiaotang: babu tanglangquan
Zhang Xiansan: liuhe tanglangquan

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Hao Gensheng
Luan Xingfu

A student of Zhao Zhuxi-forget the name- studied under Zhao (Chu Chuck Kai) before he moved to Vietnam.

A student of Jiang Hualong-Jia Jingting

There were others, but not famous now, Taiwan did a historical survey on all the Tang Lang masters.

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an interesting topic to research would be to note how the move to Taiwan influenced how Tang Lang is practiced there in comparison to Mainland and HK.

Did the heavy influence of JMA and TKD in Taiwan change how Tang Lang is practiced, or how about the prevalence of the internal arts like the Yang and Sun styles of Tai Chi etc. influence Taiwanese Tang Lang?

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[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1188902]Hao Gensheng
Luan Xingfu

A student of Zhao Zhuxi-forget the name- studied under Zhao (Chu Chuck Kai) before he moved to Vietnam.

A student of Jiang Hualong-Jia Jingting

There were others, but not famous now, Taiwan did a historical survey on all the Tang Lang masters.[/QUOTE]

Kevin,
Thanks for the added information!

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1188903]an interesting topic to research would be to note how the move to Taiwan influenced how Tang Lang is practiced there in comparison to Mainland and HK.

Did the heavy influence of JMA and TKD in Taiwan change how Tang Lang is practiced, or how about the prevalence of the internal arts like the Yang and Sun styles of Tai Chi etc. influence Taiwanese Tang Lang?[/QUOTE]

I noticed in Taiwan that many of the students of Wu Tan Institute who practiced Tang Lang did so with some Baji flavor.

As far as TKD or JMA influence, I do know some of the students I trained with had experience in karate and especially TKD. The only influence I saw was in the way they would perform some of their kicks. For example, in the side kick they would turn their hips into a full TKD/karate-style side kick, with bladed foot, unlike the traditional Chinese-style side kick. Having come from such a background myself, so did I. And of course when they sparred, their kicks would be TKD.

I saw more TKD influence among a number of southern stylists, who trained Hung Gar, and also something called ‘Taiwan Chuan’, which looked to me like a mixture of Fujian Crane and TKD/karate.

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I was told that Wei Xiaotang originally fled to Korea, but that while there he was forced to kill a Japanese gangster in self-defense. So he had to flee again to Taiwan and settled there.

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from what I have experienced so far, Taiwanese mantis is less stiff and has a greater emphasis on full body power generation than Hong Kong mantis.

this… from my learnigns from my shifu, Shyun Kwon Long (Wei’s student) was from xing yi and ba duan influence that was added after Ba bu left the mainland.

Jimbo,
you are correct, here is the story told in our family… Wei Hsiao Tang practiced very hard and was a very dedicated student. He managed to develop phenomenal strength and incredible speed. So much so that he come to be known as “Thunder Hands”. Wei Hsiao Tang was chief instructor in the Chinese Military. He was in charge of instructing the 25th Regiment in fighting techniques. After serving in China, Wei Hsiao Tang went to Korea where he was an instructor to their military. It was here that a famous incident occurred. It happened that one day while Wei Hsiao Tang was walking through town he came across a fellow Chinese, who was working as a merchant, involved in a dispute. As Wei Hsiao Tang came upon the scene a great many Koreans had begun beating the Chinese merchant. The situation was out of hand and Wei Hsiao Tang immediately intervened and asked for everyone to stop. Attacking with sticks and different manner of weapons, the mob would not quiet down. They soon turned on Wei Hsiao Tang, angered by his interference. The next day all of the of the papers told of the mob scene in which Wei Hsiao Tang drove off 50 men, injuring most and killing 4. The Korean government immediately set out to capture Wei Hsiao Tang. If it were not for friends in the Chinese underground, he might not of been able to escape. Back in China, hiding under an assumed name, then moved to Tai pei and was a cook in teh high school there for many years…

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Great info everyone!

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Here is one of the differences explained to me between Mainland TCMA and Taiwanese CMA:

Mainland TCMA was practiced by the common man whose art was developed for protecting himself, his family and his village.

The Republic of China conscripted as many famous martial arts instructors as they could and turned them into soldiers or trainers of soldiers. Those who refused to work for the ROC, if caught, were killed.

Thus, the ROC military had the benefit of training under some of the best martial arts instructors found in China and the military arts became much stronger.

When the ROC fled to Taiwan after the civil war, the martial arts and martial artists that went with them were of the highest caliber and their arts blossomed.

Those left on the Mainland after the civil war were killed, re-educated, worked for the PRC, or went into hiding. Later, the PRC sponsored people to create a quasi-martial arts/gymnastic curriculum to promote health and serve as a national sport.

I was told that some practitioners of Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan were able to continue to teach their art freely on the Mainland, because they supported the Communist government rather than the Republic of China. So, they were not seen as a threat.

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In short - you got told wrong.

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Real Kung-fu in China&Taiwan Period.

[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1189163]In short - you got told wrong.[/QUOTE]

Hey, Mooyingmantis. You got it very wrong. Chinese’s are Chinese Period. There are Many Real Masters in Taiwan and Mainland China Past and Present;Who have lived to Ripe Old Ages.please Mooying mantis do some research and then post it, not hear say. thanks. Be Well. NM.

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[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1189163]In short - you got told wrong.[/QUOTE]

Your glib comments really aren’t worth posting. Stick to FACTS. If you disagree with me, post facts that disprove what I wrote.

[QUOTE=nubianmantis;1189277]There are Many Real Masters in Taiwan and Mainland China Past and Present;Who have lived to Ripe Old Ages.[/QUOTE]

Did you even read my post? I didn’t say there are no real masters in Taiwan or China. If I didn’t think there were, I wouldn’t be flying to China next year to train.

What I did say was that the People’s Republic of China produced something very different from traditional kung fu.

[QUOTE=nubianmantis;1189277]please Mooying mantis do some research and then post it, not hear say.[/QUOTE]

My research was based on Taiwanese history as explained to me by a local University History instructor.

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Real Kung-fu in China&Taiwan Period.

Greetings Family. I shall Repeat it,Mooyingmantis You were told wrong. Fact,One there is public and private kung-fu in china and taiwan. Fact,Two Master’s Huo Chi Kwang,Chang Tung Sheng,Liu Yun Chiao are all from the Mainland China;however relocated to taiwan to live and teach high level’s of Boxing to serious students. I meet a couple of them in chicago many years ago. also my from sifu George ling hu is form mainland china via taiwan. Always remember mooyingmantis you are a westerner trying to train with chinese,so it will many years before you see real boxing if at All. you must have the real keys to the arts. That’s the Facts. be well. NM.:cool:

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>Your glib comments really aren’t worth posting. Stick to FACTS. If you disagree with me, post facts that disprove what I wrote.

The comment wasnt glib. I was trying to avoid wasting time going into depth over such a ridiculous issue and taking the obvious bait. You want to talk about FACTS??? Dont get me started. There is so much misinformation in this thread its not funny

>Did you even read my post? I didn’t say there are no real masters in Taiwan or China. If I didn’t think there were, I wouldn’t be flying to China next year to train.

Not answering for NM but I did read your post. Maybe you should go tell Zhou Zhendong your new insights into Tanglang in China and see what he thinks.

>What I did say was that the People’s Republic of China produced something very different from traditional kung fu.

Actually what you said was:

>Those left on the Mainland after the civil war were killed, re-educated, worked for the PRC, or went into hiding. Later, the PRC sponsored people to create a quasi-martial arts/gymnastic curriculum to promote health and serve as a national sport.

You then shared the following gem:

>I was told that some practitioners of Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan were able to continue to teach their art freely on the Mainland, because they supported the Communist government rather than the Republic of China. So, they were not seen as a threat.

All complete garbage. I dont care who your source is - pretty much every statement in your post was naïve, simplistic, a gross generalisation and so out of date that it was laughable. Try coming into the 90s and after youre comfortable there for a couple of years maybe then have a crack at the 2000s. You are regurgitating inflammatory propaganda. You are the one always talking about the mess of politics in Tanglang and then you come out with this nonsense. Hypocrisy. How do you expect to be received when you go to train in PRC next year? What face will you present to Zhou Zhendong?

My suggestion is that you save your money because you will only find quasi-martial arts/gymnastic material taught by Communist puppets.

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And who the hell runs and posts the latest titbit he heard in training on the internet? What is the purpose? What are you aiming for? Who is benefitting from all this misinformation apart from you?

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I can vouch the kung fu in mainland China is definitely the real thing. Perhaps its not taught in such a systematic way as classes are run in the west, often the teacher puts it to you to understand and apply the concepts in application and sparring.

Richard, from what Ive seen and encountered, you are partly right in that some masters have flashed up their mantis for performance and competition. Zhou Shifu told me once in a competition, another master from Qingdao came up to him and told him his kung fu is too old and doesnt look good for competitions, he should flash it up a bit!

Then again, I heard of people in Taiwan who added some tornado kicks to the end of luan jie to make it look better (dont quote me on that though, its just hearsay)

I dont think its a black and white as that. If you ask most mainland masters, they dont think much of kung fu in Taiwan or HK.

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[QUOTE=xiao yao;1189301]Then again, I heard of people in Taiwan who added some tornado kicks to the end of luan jie to make it look better (dont quote me on that though, its just hearsay)[/QUOTE]

You can see video of Su Kunming (Su Yuzhang) doing Luanjie where he hads some kicks at the end, filmed in 1964 in Taiwan.

There is also a video I have seen (which I don’t have) of Wang Songting doing Luanjie. It seems as though he did not pass it on to anyone who later became a teacher. That was part of what you might call his closed -door curriculum.

It is straight Luanjie, with tucked in elbows and hunched over back.

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Wang Songting was also not Qixing Tanglang.

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[QUOTE=nubianmantis;1189287]Fact,One there is public and private kung-fu in china and taiwan. Fact,Two Master’s Huo Chi Kwang,Chang Tung Sheng,Liu Yun Chiao are all from the Mainland China;however relocated to taiwan to live and teach high level’s of Boxing to serious students.[/QUOTE]

I don’t disagree with you on this. I can’t understand why this isn’t sinking in. BTW, at least two of the masters you mentioned relocated because of their ties with the ROC.

[QUOTE=nubianmantis;1189287]Always remember mooyingmantis you are a westerner trying to train with chinese,so it will many years before you see real boxing if at All. you must have the real keys to the arts. That’s the Facts. be well. NM.:cool:[/QUOTE]

Have seen it and have trained it for over forty years bro. This is not my first dealings with the “Chinese”. LOL!

[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1189299]Actually what you said was:

>Those left on the Mainland after the civil war were killed, re-educated, worked for the PRC, or went into hiding. Later, the PRC sponsored people to create a quasi-martial arts/gymnastic curriculum to promote health and serve as a national sport. [/QUOTE]

I don’t think Zhou Zhendong will have a problem with this statement, since this was exactly what he saw and experienced.

Xiaoyao conducted an interview with Master Zhou in which Master Zhou described having to train secretly at night to avoid persecution by the Communists.

I don’t think Will will mind me quoting it here:

[I]Shifu, I understand you continued your training into the Cultural Revolution, was that possible? Didnt people get persecuted for that?

Actually my master was a quiet man. He didnt participate in public events or political groups, so he avoided persecution. Other masters however were persecuted severely and often sent to the countryside to do forced labour (seen to the right). I used to visit my master after he finished work on the weekends and we would train in the darkness of night, making sure nobody watched out the windows. Then, I would go away and train by myself in a quiet place in the hills to avoid being seen.[/I]

[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1189306]Wang Songting was also not Qixing Tanglang.[/QUOTE]

According to the Mantis Cave, Wang trained in Meihua Tanglangquan, Qixing Tanglangquan and Changquan. I initially listed him as qixing tanglangquan to show that most major styles of tanglangquan were represented in Taiwan.

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Tanglang did not become extinct under the communists, even during the CR. Yes, many masters died but most did not. Many were sent to prison or forced labour camps but their minds were not erased and many continued to teach and train. The biggest tangible loss (apart from life) was quan pu and weapons and even there, elements of the oldest Tanglang quan pu survived in China.

In the CR. There were perpetrators and victims on all sides. It is simply not accurate to label an entire family as being in one position or the other. Everyone was effected. People still use events or alleged events in the CR to tarnish people’s name today. It’s up to those that were there to deal with, not us. I think the comments were irresponsible. You can make up your own mind though, after you go to China and talk to the people who actually lived through it.

Not all major Tanglang styles were represented in Taiwan. Hardly any Qixing at all until after Wong Honfan’s books. Almost all Meihua or Meihua derivatives along with one stream of Liuhe. Apart from Long Fist, Wang Songting specialised in the the elements of Tanglang that were found in the curriculum of the Qingdao Guoshuguan and his two main TL teachers were MH.