Do you have a root?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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61

[QUOTE=Hendrik;932701]Great!

and how is it usefull at all as in the following clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4

[/QUOTE]

first off you have to be careful with these types of clips. they say this vs. that and you assume this guy is a KF master because someone labeled him as such. then he is defeated and the vid is used to discredit.

gracie charged at him and tackled him basically. not very skilled. against most people who dont know how to fight (including this guy) a barrage will work.

this is also why unskilled chain punching can also work against someone who doesnt know squat about fighting.

rooting could help in this instance for resisting the double leg take down. simple as that.

if you want to know how utlize the concept against a takedown, see your local qualified KF instructor

62

Pacman and Lee Chiang Po…Excellent responses.

Hendrik when you speak of Rooting are you talking about connection or opening of the meridans?

What are you getting at. Are you looking for an internal answer that goes deeper than the simple workings of tendons, joints, bones and muscles?

Interesting Articles

Robert Chu’s Opinion on Rooting in Wing Chun:

With this basic posture aligned, you should try a simple test of alignment with the Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma (Yee Character pinching goat horse), the basic stance practiced in Wing Chun. First, you should try to stand when a force or pressure is exerted upon you. For example, let’s say a person puts their palm on your chest and presses with continuous force. The pressure should not send you flying back, but should root you to the ground. You cannot develop this power if you are leaning backwards like the Leaning Tower of Pisa, or “hunchbacked” like Quasimodo of Notre Dame. You need to relax and sink and maintain the proper alignment in doing these tests. You equalize the pressure exerted by adjustmenting your balance and pushing forward with the pelvis. The buttocks and the quadriceps are brought into play and also help with this equalization. You should not be as limp as a noodle when relaxed, nor as rigid as a board. You have to have a Yin & Yang, a dynamic interplay of the soft and hard to be able to do this.

This first test often upsets people who think that the basic stance is not a fighting stance at all, and not strong in the face of frontal force. What I write here is contrary to the majority of Wing Chun practitioners’s experience. Most who lean backwards or are hunch over like a patient sick with pulmonary emphysema will fail this test. Some will have practiced Wing Chun kuen for many years and not be able to pass this simple little test. I consider this a shame. The basic stance, Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma, is practiced about fifty percent of the time in Wing Chun training. It is used throughout the first form, as the beginning and end of every section in the second and third form, the dummy set, and the knife techniques, and and forms the basis for many partner exercises as well.

Failing this test may suggest that your lineage is stressing form over function. My motto is “stress function over form and allow application to also be your sifu”. The benefit to learning something like this is that you can see if you are actually using power with your entire body, rather than from the limbs alone. The key here is using the pelvis and making sure that the buttocks is ahead of the heels.

In the beginning, I suggest that you stand in Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma with hands held at the sides first. Later, you can do these tests with variations. Instead of pushing on the sternum, you can have hand postures of double Tan Sao position (Dispersing Arms, test one, variation 1), double Fuk Sao position (Subduing Arms, test one, variation 2), and double Gum Sao position (Pressing Arms, test one, variation 3). You can then test the structure by pushing on the arm position. With this, you can see if the arms are ideally connected with the torso. The idea is the feet grip the ground and support the legs, the legs support the knees, the knees support the thighs, the thighs transfer power to the pelvis, the pelvis to the waist, the waist to the torso and from the there, the torso connects to the shoulder. From the shoulder, the arms connect to the elbow, the elbow to the wrist, and finally to the hands. From controlling your intent and having awareness and sensitivity to adjust for changes, you should be able to easily have this feeling of being rooted.

HOWEVER HENDRIK DOESN’T BELIEVE WING CHUN HAS A ROOT

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=923987&postcount=5

HENDRIK MAY BE LOOKING FOR INFORMATION CONCERNING THE MERIDANS
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924001&postcount=7

Now my post in the past in response to Hendrik the Phatom Menace

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924219&postcount=26

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924354&postcount=33

I hope you enjoy your journey…your about to go down a rabbit hole!

63

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;932854]
Hendrik when you speak of Rooting are you talking about connection or opening of the meridans?

Everything is so clear in the previous posts and clips with Chen XW and all.

Either you dont read my previous posts or you are highly absent minded. :smiley:

Here I repeat myself toward you again,

Now, could you tell me what is this ROOTING is about, instead of posting a lists of things?

such as this

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924219&postcount=26

and how is your lists of things usefull at all as in the following clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4

Until then, as a customer, I love to buy yours product — ROOTING. But what is it? What is it for?

Please enligthen me.

Thanks.

64

Yuen Kay Shan Yiu Ku - (Important formula)

If the root is stable, the fight will be stable.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#Specific7

Hendrik What does this mean?

[QUOTE=Hendrik;932866]

Everything is so clear in the previous posts and clips with Chen XW and all.

Either you dont read my previous posts or you are highly absent minded. :smiley:

Here I repeat myself toward you again,

Now, could you tell me what is this ROOTING is about, instead of posting a lists of things?

such as this

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924219&postcount=26

and how is your lists of things usefull at all as in the following clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4

Until then, as a customer, I love to buy yours product — ROOTING. But what is it? What is it for?

Please enligthen me.

Thanks.

65

[QUOTE=Pacman;932841]Rooting does not mean you have to remain completely stationary for the entire duration of the fight.

Rooting refers to the ability to position your body in such a way that a force coming at you (whether back through your own fist or via a guy trying to take you down) is redirected toward the ground.
[B]
the tucked pelvis of YJKYM straightens the spine and the angles of your feet and knees redirect force towards the ground. if you are rooted correctly and you punch a bag, you will feel the stress of the back hitting back at you in your legs. if you are not rooted you will feel your upper body being pushed back.

if the force is directed towards your leg and to the ground, you can also push back from the ground, which for argument’s sake is very solid. this is why it is often said that punching power comes from the legs.
[/B]

So you can hop around while you fight, and when it is time to strike, you can take root and “grip the ground” with your feet for that strike.[/quote]Very nicely put. We agree on something.

or when someone tries to take you down, you can sink yourself and lower your center of gravity to withstand the tackle…
Uh-oh… it’s going pear-shaped… could we agree to get a ‘try to’ in front of ‘withstand’ in there?

t_niehoff’s example of kickboxers etc having root because they are all touching the ground is foolish at best. rooting is not about standing on the ground, it is about the redirection of force

Nah, it’s not foolish. Just because Thai boxers etc don’t talk in terms of force vectors and redirection of force and all that pseudo-scientific bollocks doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it. Ever tried pushing over a Thai boxer while he’s kicking? A kyokushin guy in the middle of slow kicking practise? Ever tried one of those nifty little wing chun stamp kicks to the knee of the post-leg of a TKD guy in full kick? They have root (and you’d get your head taken off).

66

[QUOTE=Pacman;932846]first off you have to be careful with these types of clips. they say this vs. that and you assume this guy is a KF master because someone labeled him as such. then he is defeated and the vid is used to discredit.[/quote]Jason Delucia’s history is easy enough to find. He wasn’t what I’d call a master back then, but better than a lot of mouthboxers, and certainly versed enough in various basics.

gracie charged at him and tackled him basically. not very skilled. against most people who dont know how to fight (including this guy) a barrage will work.
****ing lol, I still don’t get how people are making this kind of ****ing pants-on-head stupid remark! :smiley: That tackle wasn’t skilled? He’s used that against people of a lot higher skill level than Delucia was, as have many many other fighters. The tackle is a basic tech, sure, and one with a history as long as the human species, but so what? Many strikers can’t get off their basic techs to counter it so what’s your point (and these strikers’ techs are a lot quicker).

rooting could help in this instance for resisting the double leg take down. simple as that.
Yep, and it would probably help him get his single or just pick you up and drop you on your head. You’ve never practiced against a wrestler or BJJer have you?

if you want to know how utlize the concept against a takedown, see your local qualified KF instructor
LOL, yep do. That’ll teach you the basics of this mysterious ‘rooting’… then go and practice it against some qualified grappler so you know what not to do.

67

Yuen Kay San Kuen Kuit

can someone share more about the root in Wing Chun

68

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;932872]Yuen Kay Shan Yiu Ku - (Important formula)

If the root is stable, the fight will be stable.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#Specific7

Hendrik What does this mean?

[QUOTE=Hendrik;932866][/QUOTE]

How can I know? Ask those who post it.

69

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;932854]
HOWEVER HENDRIK DOESN’T BELIEVE WING CHUN HAS A ROOT

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=923987&postcount=5

HENDRIK MAY BE LOOKING FOR INFORMATION CONCERNING THE MERIDANS
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=924001&postcount=7
..
[/QUOTE]

Do you have to obsess over Hendrik’s stuff again and keep revisiting it?
It was pretty screwed up the first time.

All people have their own definition of rooting. Some of them don’t even make much sense within their own logic sometimes. Nevertheless it’s clear you can’t just say one idea is right or another is wrong.

Look, I’m going to give my def. and see if it helps:

  1. It’s force. Simple physics is if someone is pushing you and you aren’t moving, you are supplying force in the opposite direction that is equal. AND Friction from the ground is equal as well. That’s the base that you are sitting on. If it’s alignment or just being tense doesn’t really matter. Obviously tensing takes more effort.

Lowering your centre of gravity (COG) makes it easier to supply the force in the opposite direction. As does lowering your stance.

  1. When you go to punch someone or push or pull them it is force as well. If they move it’s because you overcame any resistant force.

  2. When someone takes you down they usually aren’t even trying to overcome your force. They are trying to break your posture. That makes you fall over. It takes a lot less force. e.g. I pick your foot off the ground and you can’t balance on the other one so good. You can lower your COG all you like at that point and it won’t help.

Actually having done a few years of judo now, I can say there’s lots of different ways to take a fight to the ground so there’s no one solution to counter them. But the best solution is usually to get your favourite controlling grip or hold.

  1. When you deflect force you are actually just pushing in a different direction. This is what happens in a lot of taiji. Rather than just holding off someone’s push (providing the exact same force in the opposite direction), you push actively in a different direction. This breaks the opponent’s posture and you don’t have to be that strong. You break their posture and the force they can supply or impart on you is reduced.

Lots of stuff can break their posture. Doesn’t even have to be a push. You could twist them or block their legs or whatever.

  1. Because you don’t need a lot of force to take someone to the ground or defend a take down, it’s not that important to be able to impart your strongest force, push or pull. We’d all take a car pushing posture if that was the case. It’s far more important to be in a ready posture that can react to what’s happening and adjust to or apply a force in the best direction.

Same goes for striking. You could take a wide solid stance for throwing a huge punch but you’d be vulnerable to all sorts of counter attack. Far better to take a compromise between mobility and power.

70

[QUOTE=Mr Punch;932876]Very nicely put. We agree on something.

Uh-oh… it’s going pear-shaped… could we agree to get a ‘try to’ in front of ‘withstand’ in there?

[/quote]

sure. rooting is not the only thing you should do, but it is a component

Nah, it’s not foolish. Just because Thai boxers etc don’t talk in terms of force vectors and redirection of force and all that pseudo-scientific bollocks doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it. Ever tried pushing over a Thai boxer while he’s kicking? A kyokushin guy in the middle of slow kicking practise? Ever tried one of those nifty little wing chun stamp kicks to the knee of the post-leg of a TKD guy in full kick? They have root (and you’d get your head taken off).

in the styles you mentioned, neither their punching nor kicking techniques discuss adjusting the body to use the ground

71

[QUOTE=Mr Punch;932879]

****ing lol, I still don’t get how people are making this kind of ****ing pants-on-head stupid remark! :smiley: That tackle wasn’t skilled?[/QUOTE]

let me explain. im sure he is skilled in his double leg takedown…and i am sure he can make it work on many people more skilled than the guy in the vid.

what i meant by unskilled was that he basically charged at him head first…head and neck wide open for a hit

Yep, and it would probably help him get his single or just pick you up and drop you on your head. Youve never practiced against a wrestler or BJJer have you?

actually i wrestled for 4 years in high school and made varsity starting my first year as a freshman. i came in 2nd in state so i know about wrestling. i also have studied bagua so i do know about throws and how rooting comes into play

i apologize for not being attached to gracie’s dong

72

Robert Chu said:

Most who lean backwards or are hunch over like a patient sick with pulmonary emphysema will fail this test.

thats funny. if robert chu is a student of the Yuen Kay San/ Sum Nung lineage, then he should be adopting the hunched back and concave chest posture.

73

It is like I said, rooting is as simple as breathing, and it is also just as necessary. The whole purpose of YGKYM is that it is a stance where you can maintain this rooting even as you move about quickly. I have to admit, it is a very uncomfortable stance and appears and feels clumsy to the new trainee. Just like most of it. Sil Lim is very clumsy at first until the trainee learns that it is not really a stationary form. Not in the way most think of it anyway. This is why it is so important to practice this stance in it’s different variations while training your footwork. Without it, your WC is not complete and is not strong. Whether you are inching, moving up quickly, or running, as long as you stay in stance you are rooted as such. Jumping about like a boxer is dangerous. A quick rush by an opponent will catch you in a poor balance and not rooted as such. You can get bowled right over. Remember, when a boxer goes down, his opponent goes to a neutral corner. In a steet confrontation there are no neutral corners.
Footwork is extremely important. When you are chasing an opponent you move quickly forward until you are approaching range and then you angle to violate his center line while maintaining your own. When you are moving away from an opponent you do so at angles when possible, which takes you out of his center line and thus out of his line of force. You need to be able to do this while maintaining solid rooting. Forward, backward, sideways, just about any angle you choose to move, you need to train this while in YGKYM so that you learn to stay rooted.
People are teaching WC and yet have no concept of rooting at all. This is so important that it should be the very first thing a practitioner should have learned. It is the foundation of Wing Chun. The best way to do this is to work with a partner and chase one another about a very large space while in YGKYM. Staying rooted while doing so, chasing one another back and forth. You learn to pursue, he learns to evade, then you switch roles. You can forget about all the parler tricks that people are showing in video clips because it is not useful at all. I have a parlor trick that I used to wow people with. The largest and strongest man alive can not lift me up off the floor while I am in a simple standing position. It is a simple parlor trick, yet completely impossible to do.

74

you can be hop around and still utilize rooting skills

if you stand like a potted plant, your offense will be easily neutralized by your opponents footwork if he simply circles you.

your defense will be all the more difficult as you are a sitting duck

75

[QUOTE=Pacman;932846]first off you have to be careful with these types of clips. they say this vs. that and you assume this guy is a KF master because someone labeled him as such. then he is defeated and the vid is used to discredit.

gracie charged at him and tackled him basically. not very skilled. against most people who dont know how to fight (including this guy) a barrage will work.

this is also why unskilled chain punching can also work against someone who doesnt know squat about fighting.

rooting could help in this instance for resisting the double leg take down. simple as that.

if you want to know how utlize the concept against a takedown, see your local qualified KF instructor[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your view!

76

[QUOTE=Pacman;932902]Robert Chu said:

thats funny. if robert chu is a student of the Yuen Kay San/ Sum Nung lineage, then he should be adopting the hunched back and concave chest posture.[/QUOTE]

what is the benifit of Hunched back and concave chest posture?

77

the idea is that with a straight back you

  1. have a higher CG
  2. are already completely extended

with a higher CG you are less mobile in your footwork…you will be slower to move in any direction. try for yourself. adopt the straight back, flat footed weight on the rear leg, straight arm out posture of some WC lineages like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlRPDhuX1DY

now try to move forward quickly. you will find yourself having to lean forward, lower your CG, and shift your weight to the front before you can move

this is opposed to the hunched back posture where you are already leaning forward with your weight on the balls of your toes. this is more similar to wrestlers (although not as low, they bend a lot at the waist), who is able to shoot forward quickly.

with a straight back you are also completely extended. with a hunched backa nd concave chest, your body is coiled like a spring ready to extend. this is relevant for striking as well as footwork.

look at the guy in the vid. if he wants to strike iwth his lead hand he needs to retract it first. he really only has one weapon, which is his rear hand. he is already cutting himself short with respect to attacking

if i were fighting him i would know that his rear hand is his main weapon. id also know that he is completely immoble. id use footwork to circle him and avoid that hand

78

Excellent Post Lee I feel many on this forum can learn a thing or two from you…keep up the good work…

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;932904]It is like I said, rooting is as simple as breathing, and it is also just as necessary. The whole purpose of YGKYM is that it is a stance where you can maintain this rooting even as you move about quickly. I have to admit, it is a very uncomfortable stance and appears and feels clumsy to the new trainee. Just like most of it. Sil Lim is very clumsy at first until the trainee learns that it is not really a stationary form. Not in the way most think of it anyway. This is why it is so important to practice this stance in it’s different variations while training your footwork. Without it, your WC is not complete and is not strong. Whether you are inching, moving up quickly, or running, as long as you stay in stance you are rooted as such. Jumping about like a boxer is dangerous. A quick rush by an opponent will catch you in a poor balance and not rooted as such. You can get bowled right over. Remember, when a boxer goes down, his opponent goes to a neutral corner. In a steet confrontation there are no neutral corners.
Footwork is extremely important. When you are chasing an opponent you move quickly forward until you are approaching range and then you angle to violate his center line while maintaining your own. When you are moving away from an opponent you do so at angles when possible, which takes you out of his center line and thus out of his line of force. You need to be able to do this while maintaining solid rooting. Forward, backward, sideways, just about any angle you choose to move, you need to train this while in YGKYM so that you learn to stay rooted.
People are teaching WC and yet have no concept of rooting at all. This is so important that it should be the very first thing a practitioner should have learned. It is the foundation of Wing Chun. The best way to do this is to work with a partner and chase one another about a very large space while in YGKYM. Staying rooted while doing so, chasing one another back and forth. You learn to pursue, he learns to evade, then you switch roles. You can forget about all the parler tricks that people are showing in video clips because it is not useful at all. I have a parlor trick that I used to wow people with. The largest and strongest man alive can not lift me up off the floor while I am in a simple standing position. It is a simple parlor trick, yet completely impossible to do.[/QUOTE]

79

[QUOTE=Pacman;932923]the idea is that with a straight back you

  1. have a higher CG
  2. are already completely extended

with a higher CG you are less mobile in your footwork…you will be slower to move in any direction. try for yourself. adopt the straight back, flat footed weight on the rear leg, straight arm out posture of some WC lineages like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlRPDhuX1DY

now try to move forward quickly. you will find yourself having to lean forward, lower your CG, and shift your weight to the front before you can move

this is opposed to the hunched back posture where you are already leaning forward with your weight on the balls of your toes. this is more similar to wrestlers (although not as low, they bend a lot at the waist), who is able to shoot forward quickly.

with a straight back you are also completely extended. with a hunched backa nd concave chest, your body is coiled like a spring ready to extend. this is relevant for striking as well as footwork.

look at the guy in the vid. if he wants to strike iwth his lead hand he needs to retract it first. he really only has one weapon, which is his rear hand. he is already cutting himself short with respect to attacking

if i were fighting him i would know that his rear hand is his main weapon. id also know that he is completely immoble. id use footwork to circle him and avoid that hand[/QUOTE]

This is a good reason however it comes with an extremely costly payment long term. and it also limit one’s progress. IMHO.

Thus, the Kidney Qi return to origin Qigong was introduced into the system to neutralized the defect or damage cause.

Sure, i could be wrong.

80

hey maybe ther’s a difference between how to stand when fighting and when doing snt?