It is my belief that doing tournaments will hinder you in a real fight, you are training your reactions unrealisticly as you never really follow through. Of course you can gain things like timing, distance, etc..but are the gains worth the consequences? I have been in a few fights but not many tournaments perhaps others have a broader base for comparison and can provide some insight?
Gary
“Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong”-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com
All tournament fighting or are we just talking point sparring? Let’s hope lkfdmc doesnt see this one.
all
all in general
“Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong”-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com
How else will you train your reactions?
Tournaments
Tournaments limited your ability to test ALL of your skills. Tournaments are important for the following reasons -
To test your bravery
To test timing
To test endurance
To test some techniques
To allow you to punch and kick very hard which most of us cannot do when sparring with friends and kung fu brothers.
Tournaments can be a pain in the a** because you have to train yourself for them for weeks and there is a lot of time and dedication for it. But in the scheme of things I ask how else to know if your training works?
Gary, you should consider the fact that some of the absolute greatest players of the martial arts you are involved in were heavily involved in tournament fighting. It is a great “part” of your learning process, and it has many great values. It may not directly influence your survival rate in a real fight, but on the other hand it may. It will certainly not hinder you, as you will see that the techniques are the same as long as you have control of your power. Note the famous quote, “With power comes responsibility”. I could attack my teacher full force and he wouldn’t kill me, even if he has practiced so that he is capable of it. With his power and control of such, he is capable of handling such without that necessity. He at one point in his life participated in taijiquan tournaments, some 20 years ago I believe, and he has also judged them in the past. He doesn’t do tournament fighting anymore, hasn’t in the last 10 years or more as far as I know. One should probably not make it part of their training routine, but it does not hinder your ability to defend yourself. Your awareness & focus is the only hindrance.
I haven’t participated in a tournament myself in 12 years.
<font size=“1”>“Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It’s the <font color=“blue”>‘just’</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color=“blue”>ego</font> go berserk.” - Hans Taeger</font>
Gary -
I think tournaments are an excellent way of finding skilled opponents highly dedicated at resisting your techniques. There are also certain lessons in distancing and timing which are difficult to learn without tournament-style fighting.
That said, alot of people confuse tournament fighting for real fighting, which is detrimental. In alot of the more important ways, fighting in the ring is not just different, but the exact opposite than fighting on the streets. This is not just a philosophical difference, but should actually impact the technical training that you do - depending on whether you want it to be ideal for the streets or ideal for the ring. I do not think that many people understand this. This can be very detrimental.
On a somewhat similar thread a while back, I mentioned some of the ways I think tournament fighting is different than ring fighting. Check out my first post on http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=126197291&f=626191279&m=6171903772 . You can ignore the rest of the thread, as it’s mostly useless.
I want to say yes, 100%, but Razak brings up one good point; testing bravery. Without bravery, you have NO skill. This is the only benefit I see. Being able to use your full power is important, but not that important. Have your partner put on some thick-ass pads and fire away. Timing, Endurance and Techniques can all be practiced with your kung fu family.
“it’s all about the basics”
I want to say something about bravery. I used to get nervous at tournaments. Not a lot but definitely some.
Once I was attacked in Amsterdam on the street – literally kicked in the eye out of nowhere. I located my attacker who was now standing directly in front of me with his fists up, scowling, ready and eager for another attack.
Because of my martial arts training – not tournament experience – I was dead calm. I decided I would simply take the guy out by whatever means neccessary if he came at me again. He stood there for a moment, ready to attack. I simply stood there looking at him, ready and waiting.
You know what he did? He turned and ran his ass off. Pretty wild, eh?
Anyway. My point is simply that I found myself far more brave when it really counted because I was not restricted to rules. I simply made a survival decision and was confident due to my training I could pull it off.
So I believe bravery will be there automatically when it counts if you’ve trained dutifully in an art form you are confident is effective.
There’s also of course simply just the being’s own general native ability to confront (whatever it is he finds before him – no matter how potentially unsettling). But aside from this I believe training bolsters one’s ability to confront and face danger with confidence immensely.
may the force be with you
Good story but..
NYC is a lot different. Thugs in the street would not run. You would have to beat them down for them to stop. Realistically, no one is going to look at your stance and run…no way not in NYC…in fact that is an invitation for them to take it another level…
I’m not into generalities. New York City? Amsterdam? Thugs in the street? Individuals are individuals and the truth is ANYONE could find himself in ANY senario ANYWHERE in the world.
Stance? That’s funny. I wasn’t in a stance. I just stood there looking at the guy calmly, waiting. I believe he was simply a coward who was hoping to take advantage of blindsiding me (I’m sure you have at least one coward in NYC, right?). When he saw that I was unrattled by the first attack and obviously unintimidated and now fully aware of his position and intentions and was cool enough in disposition not to simply lash back at him out of pure reaction, this was enough to scare him.
I am sure this sort of individual exists in every city on the planet, whether it be New York City or New Delhi. And I’m lucky this was his mindset. If it was not, I would have had to fight him.
But I digress. My point in the first post was merely to point out that bravery is not neccessarily something that is automatically cultivated by competition. It may be. But I’ve always been somewhat nervous in competition and the bravery I felt in a real life senario when it presented itself came purely from training two man drills – and the resulting confidence I could apply these drills in the street.
I’m sure my response would have been the same even if I had been in New York City. Sure, I may have been attacked further and in that situation I would have to fight. Fine. But then again, in a New York senario, maybe the guy would have just laughed at me, patted me on the back and taken me out for a slice and a beer. Maybe he would try to sell me a stolen watch. Maybe he would pass out in a heroin nod. Maybe he would pull out a gun and shoot me. Maybe he’d be on PCP and rip his own eyeballs out of his head. Maybe he’d try to convert me into a homeless born again Christian. Maybe he’d slip on the ice he was standing on. In New York it snows you know. In New York people have accents. Maybe he would have barked something at me and I’d go, “What?” and he’d say “mya, mya, mya, something!” And I’d say, “Excuse me?” and he’d say, “mya, mya, mya, something.” And then I’d say, “I’m sorry. I don’t understand.” And then he’d say, “Goddamnit. Mya, mya, mya, something!!” And I’d go, “Dude. I’m sorry. I don’t know what the hell you’re saying.” And then a cop on a horse would come by and shoot the guy 16 times, reload and shoot him 10 more times for good measure. And then there’d be this big story about it in the paper because the darnedest stuff happens in New York City, you know? And then the NAACP would get involved. And then again, you know, maybe he would have smiled and said, “You’re on candid camera!” And then I would have won a trip to Mexico. I hear in Mexico City street thugs are TERRIFIED of stances. I could go there and subdue the entire city with a well rehearsed crane form. Then they would make me Mayor. And after winning two terms in office I’d run for President of all Mexico on a strict platform of well executed tiger claw techniques. And my first action as President would be to invade New York City on a mission to get everybody there to just lighten up a bit. We’d jump at dawn. My paratroopers would land and go around attaching little plastic flowers that squirt water from them onto the lapels of every New Yorker. Then we’d buy 26 million tickets to Broadway, give everybody the day off and take the whole city out for a good show. And everyone would leave the theater that night saying, “That was much better than Cats. I’m going to see it again and again.” And before you know it the public will be so softened up that even THEY will be afraid of stances. And then I would show up in a stance and everybody would cower in fear but then I’d say, “Hey, I’m just joking. Let’s all go out for ice cream!” And the city would cheer. But then again, maybe this New York City street thug attacking me would be gay and find me outstandingly attractive. Perhaps he would say, “My God! You’re positively scrumptious! I need you! Come with me to the Casbah!!” And I would resist at first because I’m heterosexual and deeply in love with my girlfried. But wait. There’s something about his stance. I find myself strangely attracted to this spunky little homosexual New York City street punk with the sassy stance. And away we would fly!! Off to Paris for a whirlwind romance and a weekend in Bangkok (no pun intended). And then I would grow tired of him and realize that I was really only just experimenting. But alas. Perhaps my attacker would be extraordinarily sensitive to bad breath and the onion dog I had just eaten would just completely knock him over. Maybe if I were sucking on a tic tac this would mitigate the effects. Maybe in that case he would only waver a little, perhaps shake his head and even tear up a bit. But then again, New Yorkers are pretty tough. Maybe it wouldn’t matter if I’d eaten that onion dog at all. Maybe this would only provoke him. Maybe if I could just shift my stance… 
may the force be with you
[This message was edited by toddbringewatt on 09-23-01 at 12:14 PM.]
That last post was freaking weird.
That’s the point.
Hey, by the way, Mr. Nemo. I live in LA as well. Where do you study Tai Chi and Bagua? I’m still looking for a school. Do you like where you’re studying?
may the force be with you
What the h*ll are you talking about?
What are you talking about?
I guess my attempt at illustrating the futility of attempting to speculate how a hypothetical attacker might react mixed with sarcasm at the audacious prospect of speaking for the general assembly of all street thugs of the entire city of New York went thoroughly ungrasped and unappreciated. Oh, well. Sometimes you fail.
Try reading my post again and this time ignore the comedic rant at the end (like the whole last long paragraph of silliness). I know, comedy is a shaky and rather relative little beast. Please forgive the unsung attempt. I tried.
Shrug.
may the force be with you 
Stancentology
Hot damn! Being trapped in a beautiful climate sure twists the circuits. CMA evangelism has been taken to a whole new dimension of wierd-arse.
[This message was edited by dedalus on 09-26-01 at 04:57 AM.]
Dedalus,
What effect were you trying to create with that post?
[This message was edited by toddbringewatt on 09-26-01 at 06:15 AM.]
I have no problem with humor but…
What the hell were you talking about?
What I was talking about…
Mind Boxer,
Sorry I wasn’t more clear. Here, you posted:
NYC is a lot different. Thugs in the street would not run."
Which thugs? Every thug in NYC? You’ve interviewed them?
“You would have to beat them down for them to stop.”
Them who? All the thugs in New York again? All of them? This is the ONLY tactic which would work against THEM? Out of all the possible creative/communicative approaches this is it? Did you survey it? Test it? Are you sure?
“Realistically, no one is going to look at your stance and run…no way not in NYC…in fact that is an invitation for them to take it another level…”
I never said I was in any stance or that anyone looked at it and ran. I said I just stood there looking at the guy, you know, like any normal person on the street might stand?
Again you bring up NYC. I don’t think NYC is that special a case compared to the rest of the world. Most inner city thugs in any city are a pretty violent lot.
As far as an invitation to take it to another level. Yes, I’m sure if I were standing in some kind of ridiculously obvious Kung Fu stance the guy would take it as a challange. This would be a very stupid thing to do.
I gave the guy an out by not reacting but by simply standing there looking at him, this time ready for his next attack.
See I think the guy was just a coward who was hoping to blindside me and take care of me that way. When it didn’t work (his first attack) and he was faced with the prospect of taking me on face to face, he noticed how calm and willing I was to confront him and this frightened him. These kinds of cowards exist in NYC too. They’re everywhere.
Moreover, my entire point with my original post was to simply say that I’ve been nervous in tournaments but when it came down to the real thing I was calm. And this was due to my two-man drill training not competition. I was commenting on bravery as it relates to tournament participation vs. simple training. That’s all.
You brought up the generalities of “street thugs”, “New York City” and “stances”. I was simply responding to what I felt were the absurdities of those issues.
That’s all. I ended my original post on the matter with a joke about pizza and beer to keep it light and as unoffensive to you as possible, then I just got carried away and went on a humorous rant and had fun with it.
Ever been a comedian in your own mind?
may the force be with you
toddbringewatt!!
I’ve been browsing these forums for a long time now and I registered just to tell you that your email was BRILLIANT. Just wanted you to know that your humor was not wasted! Maybe it’s a west coast thing…
I’m still laughing…