To be honest i’ve had the pleasure of training with WSL Instructors like Clive Potter in the UK, David Peterson when he visits and i gotta say i consider myself one lucky #######. Just need to get my act together cause there is a few more i need to cross off on my wish list. Have to get my arse over to LA at some point Ernie so we can hook up and also have the pleasure of meeting Gary.
method and engine
Originally posted by sihing
[B]You assume too much too quickly.
Pure curiosity, that’s all. I was always interested in the Cheung/Lee relationship since there was a great respect by Bruce towards Cheung, as is also true of Bruce towards Wong. But haven’t heard what the two of them thought of one another. If I were to speculate, just for the fact that Cheung was larger and lets say “equally skilled” the advantage would logically have to go towards him, but really who knows unless you have seen the two of them in their primes, one of those things you think about for a couple of seconds once every couple of years.
James [/B]
no worries 
We can look at it from a more constructive angle
Leave out the individuals and research the methods and engine they passed on and used
One of my privates is a TWC guy who is very interested in checking out different aspects of wing chun so he asked me to take him through the WSL / GL engine, mind you even between WSL and Sifu Lam there are have been additions and subtractions but the basic engine is the same, the development method is were the differences stand out.
I have also had some hands on with TWC guys in there sifu testing level [not sure what that means =)]
And we have shared and compared
So my research though far from complete [since I have not trained in TWC] so making a definitive statement would be hollow and dis respectful.
From what I have felt and observed they two methods are almost polar opposites in engine and method. This is neither good nor bad just different choices in application.
I think it is very important to be open minded and study [living] applications of the wing Chun engine
I have had the pleasure of working with Andrew and Dhira and they have shown me the WT engine as well as a few live in sifu from Germany that spent 3 months at Sifu Lams last year
Allot of time with Hawkins and his method
Limited time with Kenneth Chung [a guy is now training at Sifu Lams] would like more research on this method as well
A brief look at Robert Chu’s method by way a David M. students
Fongs method by way of my si hing that spent a considerable amount of time in that system
Randy Williams’s method a ten-year student is training with us for his research
Grado’s a guy is training with us since he moved from New York
Victor Kan a 10-year guy is also training with us since moving out this way
And all the major WSL sifu, Clive, Peterson, Phillip, Barry, Nino Etc…
Now all these guys can make their system work
Each application method dictates the engine and body style, there are many pieces to the wing Chun puzzle. If you learn to embrace each other and learn instead of pointing fingers and saying this guy is wrong.
You could pick up a much clearer view of what wing Chun is and can be. Don’t just jump to conclusions based on knee jerk reactions [many exist by way of brain washing and marketing schemes]
I’m writing all this for a few reasons one since it’s a WSL thread and the anniversary of his death is upon us.
Yes I will show my appreciation and respect to my sifu’s sifu [but don’t tell anyone my image would be ruined]
And second to try and bring us back on track with wing Chun conversations
The path to fighting and applying can be reaching in progressive training steps, training based on the system we chose to let guide our path
So instead of pointing to the end result, lets go one step at a time towards the end result
As long as you have a clear goal, if it is to fight, or to be a chi sau guy or to be a forms guy or just to be a link in the wing Chun chain and pass on what has been passed to you. It’s all good
CKing ---- my pleasure
Kev - once i buy my house , my house is your house buddy
I hate back-patting, but really Ernie, Bravo again!
Sounds like you have some great oppurtunities. My sifu spent considerable time under various different wing chun sifu’s - there was a lot of different wing chun in london in the 70s, then later on travelling extensively to get the ‘big picture’ of wing chun.
‘Complete the system’ under a few different sifu’s is one of the best things you can do - but give each one the attention they deserve.
Much of the lineage stuff is BS - different people tended to get different bits of the puzzle from Ip Man, and even Ip Man tended to have passed things down in a slightly reductionistic way (look to the mainland). Ip Man was a great teacher of individuals - not an art preserver, but that’s how a good sifu should be.
Ernie,
Sounds like material for many great new threads!
Putting it all together is the key.
The more pieces you have to the puzzle - the more you become the eagle flying overhead surveying the whole landscape and knowing when, where, and how to swoop down for a successful attack.
And you can also discriminate much better between what works (for you) and what doesn’t…and sometimes you might find out about what really doesn’t work at all - no matter who tries it.
My 8 years with Moy Yat were invaluable, for example, because I learned quite a bit about fighting straight down the middle - and occasionally coming from a flank - but always basically just attacking-the-center…whereas the emphasis with William Cheung’s TWC approach is to always work for the blindside - and therefore working to gain the opponent’s flank - whether you’re on the inside or the outside…which requires much more footwork and facing strategies - along with a centraline principle - in addition to the centerline.
(And in truth, William Cheung understands and is an expert in the first method, and has demonstrated and taught it’s finer points from time-to-time)…but the emphasis is on the second approach because such positioning does give a slight advantage…
But you have to know both methods if you want to see and work “the whole field”…since you don’t always have a choice as to how the fight will develop.
(Also got to do chi sao with Victor Kan and Mak Po during my Moy Yat years…and they both brought a slightly different emphasis to their Wing Chun than Moy Yat did - though both also emphasized the always attack-the-center approach).
NOW TAKING THIS ONE STEP FURTHER…
It’s not just about trying to see and work the whole Wing Chun landscape (which is exclusively a standup striking/kicking game…with a few armlocks and sweeps thrown in)…
but seeing and working the whole landscape CLEARLY also means fighting while in the standing clinch and grappling on the ground.
Ah…but I digress.
Back to the STREET/REALITY FIGHTING forum.
Good posts by everyone I must say. That’s the real beauty of this forum is the fact that we can try to understand one another better. One has to have a faith in what they do and believe it is of good quality, if not then why do it. This should be discovered early in the training/learning and adjusted accordingly. If that means leaving the place you are learning then fine.
Ernie seems to have a advantage over lots of us as he has exposure and access to many different variations of Wing Chun. In out school we only have a few previous students of the art, and the quality of the lineage was not that good from what I understand. Besides our own school here, there are only a few other WC schools present in Calgary, Greco Wong is here but doesn’t teach as much, and there’s a Moy Yat school here also, and I student here says he met a Chinese man at work that claims to have learned from Yip Man through private lessons back in the 60’s but this guy isn’t teaching. I’ve heard nothing of these schools good or bad, and each method has its value and is effective for what they do. The idea is never to compare arts or belittle someone for what they are doing.
As for Cheung and Wong, I just find these things interesting and wondered what the two thought of each other, maybe this is not the place to ask such a question?
James
“Ernie seems to have a advantage over lots of us as he has exposure and access to many different variations of Wing Chun.” (James)
SPEAK for yourself…I’m gonna kick Ernie’s butt when I see him.
The advantage was only in reference to his ability to understand all WC a bit more clearly, not in relation to one’s combat effectiveness. I should have replaced the word “advantage” and put in privledge.
James
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]“Ernie seems to have a advantage over lots of us as he has exposure and access to many different variations of Wing Chun.” (James)
SPEAK for yourself…I’m gonna kick Ernie’s butt when I see him. [/B]
You might have to wait a while Vic
Doc says possible Distal Biceps Rupture
MRI at the end of the month
If I need to get sliced [recommended] 6 months to recover
But I still got one good arm: D
As for my exposure it’s been building I categorize the approach and engine dictated by the approach
Into range and structure to support favored range
Long triangle = distance is greater so footwork/speed and more wrist type connection/feeling more of a TWC but also WT range
One uses the fixed root with hands like reeds the other mobile base with hands like knives both can operate well
Medium triangle = most other Yip man based approaches,
Short triangle = body to body WU sau range, standing grappling, a little of this seems to be spread in most systems how they get there varies
Each range or preferred distance has a supportive engine and structure that fits that engine
Once you start to see wing chun [body mechanic in general] this way, you are free from lineage or style confines
The pressure is off for you to make it all fit your specific approach
Now we can be free to analyze and experiment. As a coach I will have to have a file cabinet in my mind of metaphors and training methods to help many different body types and mindsets, instead of attempting to be a copy machine I can dig in and pull methods to help them get what fits them,
To do this I have to research and listen and learn to everything I can from wing Chun to any other skill development process
Keeps me humble open and growing always as a student if you know what I mean, and many of you have done a lot to fill my file cabinet
"Doc says possible Distal Biceps Rupture
MRI at the end of the month.
If I need to get sliced [recommended] 6 months to recover." (Ernie)
SORRY to hear that, man.
Got to try and change your lifestyle for awhile (I know it’s tough)…
had double-hernia surgery back in 1996.
Longest year of my martial arts life. (The recovery time).
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]"Doc says possible Distal Biceps Rupture
MRI at the end of the month.
If I need to get sliced [recommended] 6 months to recover." (Ernie)
SORRY to hear that, man.
Got to try and change your lifestyle for awhile (I know it’s tough)…
had double-hernia surgery back in 1996.
Longest year of my martial arts life. (The recovery time). [/B]
thanks man ,
puts a dent on the positive flow i have been having this year , but like any obstruction just go around it and keep moving
We’ve got a few in Calgary, like: Greco Wong’s, I think there’s another Moy Yat family, TWC, Ho Kam Ming school with Anthony Ng, Simon Siu at the Chinese Cultural Centre is teaching Wing Chun, Randy Klyne with EBMAS, and I’m sure there are underground cats that we don’t know about.
We’re quite lucky here for the diversity.
Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik
Going off topic but,
did WSL lose to one of Ip Sui’s students.
Originally posted by Vio
Going off topic but,
did WSL lose to one of Ip Sui’s students.
I’m sure a history buff could answer this better then me
but WSl had a few loses some before wing chun and some after
every great fighter has loses , thats what makes them great they come back and keep moving forward
i think your referring to that mantis story , a lot of stories came out after WSL passed away , just like when bruce passed all kinds of will i could beat him stories popped out
Originally posted by couch
[B]We’ve got a few in Calgary, like: Greco Wong’s, I think there’s another Moy Yat family, TWC, Ho Kam Ming school with Anthony Ng, Simon Siu at the Chinese Cultural Centre is teaching Wing Chun, Randy Klyne with EBMAS, and I’m sure there are underground cats that we don’t know about.
We’re quite lucky here for the diversity.
Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik [/B]
Diversity is great if the quality is good.
Funny thing Simon Siu at the cultural center here, I wonder why we do all the demo’s there at the Cultural Center if he’s already teaching WC at the center? From what I have heard it is half breed WC, his primary style is Choy Lay Fut. Didn’t know about the Ho Kam Ming school here, so that is news to me, and Randy Klyne is a ex student of ours and still isn’t a Sifu level yet after almost 10yrs with Emin, so not sure what the story is there, but the school keeps on moving around from place to place so its hard to keep track of his progress, but he still calls my Sifu Sifu as they meet up a year and half ago.
Anyone can claim anything and say this and that as to their individual credentials, but quality shines through. The old adage, “Quality over quantity” is relevant here.
As for TWC, who’s teaching that?
James
Originally posted by sihing
[B]Diversity is great if the quality is good.
Funny thing Simon Siu at the cultural center here, I wonder why we do all the demo’s there at the Cultural Center if he’s already teaching WC at the center? From what I have heard it is half breed WC, his primary style is Choy Lay Fut. Didn’t know about the Ho Kam Ming school here, so that is news to me, and Randy Klyne is a ex student of ours and still isn’t a Sifu level yet after almost 10yrs with Emin, so not sure what the story is there, but the school keeps on moving around from place to place so its hard to keep track of his progress, but he still calls my Sifu Sifu as they meet up a year and half ago.
Anyone can claim anything and say this and that as to their individual credentials, but quality shines through. The old adage, “Quality over quantity” is relevant here.
As for TWC, who’s teaching that?
James [/B]
Haha. You’re teaching TWC. Your lineage comes from William Cheung. Although Lewadny changed a bunch of stuff. Funny guy.
Have you trained under/visited any other schools in Calgary? Greco Wong might not be teaching as much, but his senior Cam is running things very smoothly over there.
Have you ever been to an EBMAS class here in Calgary? It’s really good and Randy is very nice person to talk to and get a Wing Chun perspective from. He’s teaching out of Balance Fitness http://www.balancefitness.ca/Location.htm which is a fitness gym that he started and sold to another owner. I think that he’s done well for himself despite being dragged along by his previous kwoon for so many years…
…I wonder why you wonder about Simon Siu at the Cultural Centre. Why don’t you wonder about the Bak Mei school’s Sifu who knows Wing Chun, is 1 block away from the Cultural Centre and you’re the ones doing the demos. You’re a commercial school. The more publicity, the better. This is not always the case with some schools. Just wanted to point this out. Some schools don’t want the limelight.
Sincerely,
Kenton/Couch
Originally posted by couch
[B]Haha. You’re teaching TWC. Your lineage comes from William Cheung. Although Lewadny changed a bunch of stuff. Funny guy.
Have you trained under/visited any other schools in Calgary? Greco Wong might not be teaching as much, but his senior Cam is running things very smoothly over there.
Have you ever been to an EBMAS class here in Calgary? It’s really good and Randy is very nice person to talk to and get a Wing Chun perspective from. He’s teaching out of Balance Fitness http://www.balancefitness.ca/Location.htm which is a fitness gym that he started and sold to another owner. I think that he’s done well for himself despite being dragged along by his previous kwoon for so many years…
…I wonder why you wonder about Simon Siu at the Cultural Centre. Why don’t you wonder about the Bak Mei school’s Sifu who knows Wing Chun, is 1 block away from the Cultural Centre and you’re the ones doing the demos. You’re a commercial school. The more publicity, the better. This is not always the case with some schools. Just wanted to point this out. Some schools don’t want the limelight.
Sincerely,
Kenton/Couch [/B]
Oh that’s funny about Randy Klyne. Last year his website from Emin’s website brought us to Balance Fitness, but not anymore, and about Randy’s Embas business, about two years ago at the gym I work out of (not Balance Fitness), to which at that time Randy was running his full time Embas school, he had only 8 students to which I use to watch some of the classes since I was there anyways working out. I’ve met Randy personally and have nothing against him or what he is doing. From what I remember of him he was a nice guy and very respectfull, and since he still calls Sifu Sifu I guess he still has great respect for his teacher. Everybody has to do what they have to do, but from what I understand of the situation, the whole reason why he left was to progress his WC so that he could teach it professionally and to a profit. 8 students is not a profitable school.
As for Greco, he wasn’t too impressed with things when Sifu arrived in Calgary in 89’. Word got back to Greco that if he had a problem he could come by for a visit. Since then we haven’t heard back. So much for Greco…Sifu’s never had a problem with other Martial Artist teaching what they teach, but the reverse is not always the same. It’s a free enterprise system here in Canada, so competition is healthy.
As for the Bak Mei school, I just had a intro two weeks ago with student from one of the schools that teach Bak Mei in the city. You see, for all those concerned, the are two Bak Mei schools in Calgary, one taught by the Father and one by the Son, both do not talk to each other anymore. The student that came in was very interested in what we have to offer.
It’s not about “lime light”, it about quality product. Sooner or later the quality shines through and people recognize it. Just because the popularity and status of a school is higher than the rest doesn’t mean the quality is low. During the month of November 04’ we had 190+ 1 hour classes in our school, 120hrs of those were regularly scheduled classes, where did the extra 70+hrs come from? Personal lessons and grading lessons, that’s where. We ensure that each student at what ever level learns what they need to according to the level that they are at. End of story.
As for TWC, it’s part of the cirriculum but not the whole.
James
What else does your curriculum entail other than TWC?
Why did Lewadny feel like modifying what he learned from William Cheung? If William Cheung said “In my career I have had two exceptional students and they both have the same initials. One is no longer with us and one is standing right over there. I only wish that when I was a student I had a teacher like him.” Why would his top student change what he learned.
No matter who said what or did what…you have never touched hands with Greco’s students. Or Anthony Ng’s students, Simon’s students or the Bak Mei students…
…As for the Bak Mei school, whenever they do a demo or are working on something for the benifit of Bak Mei, the two clubs get together. The son wanted to modify some of his father’s teachings and left. End of story.
You are NOT the only quality school out there. You can post how many hours that you are open, etc, etc. There are so many martial art schools out there and have lots of quality to give a student.
Originally posted by couch
[B]What else does your curriculum entail other than TWC?
Why did Lewadny feel like modifying what he learned from William Cheung? If William Cheung said “In my career I have had two exceptional students and they both have the same initials. One is no longer with us and one is standing right over there. I only wish that when I was a student I had a teacher like him.” Why would his top student change what he learned.
No matter who said what or did what…you have never touched hands with Greco’s students. Or Anthony Ng’s students, Simon’s students or the Bak Mei students…
…As for the Bak Mei school, whenever they do a demo or are working on something for the benifit of Bak Mei, the two clubs get together. The son wanted to modify some of his father’s teachings and left. End of story.
You are NOT the only quality school out there. You can post how many hours that you are open, etc, etc. There are so many martial art schools out there and have lots of quality to give a student. [/B]
Kenton Quote: “What else does your curriculum entail other than TWC?”
Too much to mention. Ground fighting, Chin-na to a higher degree, different Chi-sao drills and excersises, Kicking technique, Chi Kung methods different from TWC/Cheung methods, just to name a few. The whole cirriculum is different with emphasize on
being a complete Martial Artist, not just a WC specialist.
Sifu didn’t modify anything. IMO he brought it back to what it originally was? For example, in most WC systems there is the immovable elbow concept. Then why in TWC does William Cheung collapse the elbow in his SLT form? This was adjusted way back in 89’ in our kwoon. Without get to much into things that are know one’s business, the answer to your question “Why did he change things” is because he saw the need to. You have to understand that although Sifu learned the TWC from William Cheung, he was still a master in his own right in other MA systems, with 23yrs of experience and hard training behind him. When he went to Australia he did so with an open mind and became the student again. After he came back he adjusted what he learned to fit his own logic. No one’s forcing anyone to believe or follow his methods or ways, it’s a free country. I haven’t heard any complaints so far. As a matter of fact a previous student just came back to the school after more than a 10 yr absence and said he constantly thought about the WC he learned from Sifu and was disappointed in himself for not continuing in his studies of WC with us as he understands more than ever that the quality and effectiveness of what Sifu teaches is very high.
As for touching hands with all the above mentioned, I may not have personally, so their skills may or may not be good, I don’t know or care. I’m not concerned nor threatened by anyone on that list nor do I dwell on them, as I have more important things to think about.
James
Hi Couch,
I was just wondering what linage of wing chun does Anthony Ng teach. Is it koo lo/ pin sun wing chun?
kung fu fighter