did wong shun leung ever

Nick_Forrer · February 2, 2005, 1:26pm

Since the original question was ‘did wsl ever use weights’ which i take to mean did he ever use free weights/ machines etc. and do things like bicep curls, bench press, dead lifts, squats etc. and not to mean hard training, running, skipping, swimming, dummy, pole, wall bag etc. then I would say as far as im aware no.

Another story about WSL. When he was in the UK with my teacher he met a huge bodybuilder who also did TKD. This guy, wanting to show off goes up to his mercedes and picks it up off the ground.
WSL smiles and goes:

‘thats nothing. Hold out both your arms straight and lace your fingers together.’

The guy does this…

‘Now try your hardest to stop me moving your arms from this (static) position’

‘ok’ says the guy…

‘ready’ says wong

‘ready’ says the guy

wsl puts his little finger on the guys wrist and without any effort
pushes his arms across.

The guy is overawed and declares WSL a true master!

Moral of the story: intelligent use of levers beats brute strength every time!!

Kevin_Bell · February 2, 2005, 1:54pm

Nick Nick Nick,

Mate, i reckon we’re never gonna agree here, this is just a spill over from a couple of weeks back and you’ve drawn me in…

You know my views on this no point repeating for the sake of it or it will become a topic thats like watching a film for the fifth time, BORING. Actually, i feel this is no longer a topic of WSL doing weights or not (which David P has stated that he did-and advocated his students do) but who’s closest to WSL who said what where and when i mean lets cut the b u l l #####out here, i got no desire what so ever to get involved in other peoples point scoring games (i know you know what im talking about) because frankly i couldnt give a ####. History is History lets have a respect for it not dwell on it and try to live it. Lets all try and share,get on and keeps those doors/avenues open for the future extending the olive branch of friendship so we can all benefit and get on.

Anyway, regardless of where myself and yourself (not others)on physical training side of things i want to speak to you at some point in the near future reference the grappling stuff when you’re in the area etc.

Cheers

Kev

P.s HIT sucks:p j/k

IRONMONK · February 2, 2005, 2:10pm

i heard that WSL came from a boxing background-is this correct?

David_Peterson · February 2, 2005, 2:43pm

Yes it is. You can read of this via the link earlier in this thread.
DMP

Ultimatewingchun · February 2, 2005, 2:51pm

Another question about WSL’s boxing, David.

I’ve seen a photo of him on the front cover of a Wing Chun book (don’t recall the name of it right now)…wherein his hands are held up fairly high, closed fists, and what seems like something of a boxing pose - but yet the Wing Chun is still very definable and obvious as well.

In what ways would you say, if anything, his Wing Chun and boxing overlapped…in actual fighting application.

David_Peterson · February 2, 2005, 3:10pm

Hi Victor,
Sounds like the front cover of my book that you are describing
Yes, I think that it would be true to say that his boxing background played a continual role in his fighting skills over the years and did subtly influence his WC in many ways. I would say that the main role it played was that it made him a more fluid practitioner who didn’t get locked into fixed patterns and ideas, but adapted easily under pressure and was willing to hit from anywhere with anything, rather than slavishly sticking to the so-called “rules” of the system. As you suggested, while the pose has the look of a boxer, it is clearly at the same time very recognisably Wing Chun in nature.
DMP

Ultimatewingchun · February 2, 2005, 4:15pm

Thanks, David,

No wonder that Wong, and William, and Bruce made such an impact - and brought so much recognition of, and respect for Wing Chun within the martial arts world…

the three of them were friends who shared something in common - they understood what reality fighting is all about.

…

BTW, David…what’s the title of the book?

And is it available here in the United States?

Can I go into my local martial art store here in NYC, for example, and find it there?

Phil_Redmond · February 2, 2005, 5:17pm

Originally posted by David Peterson
Hi Victor,
Sounds like the front cover of my book that you are describing
Yes, I think that it would be true to say that his boxing background played a continual role in his fighting skills over the years and did subtly influence his WC in many ways. I would say that the main role it played was that it made him a more fluid practitioner who didn’t get locked into fixed patterns and ideas, but adapted easily under pressure and was willing to hit from anywhere with anything, rather than slavishly sticking to the so-called “rules” of the system. As you suggested, while the pose has the look of a boxer, it is clearly at the same time very recognisably Wing Chun in nature.
DMP

Shame on you David. How could a man of your stature in the WC community condon using things outside the “rules” of WC in combat?
Phil

sihing · February 2, 2005, 5:28pm

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Shame on you David. How could a man of your stature in the WC community condon using things outside the “rules” of WC in combat?
Phil

For me it’s not about “condoning” using things outside the WC cirriculum, but is it necessary to do so? Does one have to go outside the system to be a effective fighter, Yes or No? We are individuals first and even though I have only trained in WC, it doesn’t mean I can’t use other methods I have discovered over the years. In the end it’s getting out of the situation safely that counts, not perfection in WC technique and useage.

James

Phil_Redmond · February 2, 2005, 6:03pm

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Thanks, David,

No wonder that Wong, and William, and Bruce made such an impact - and brought so much recognition of, and respect for Wing Chun within the martial arts world…

the three of them were friends who shared something in common - they understood what reality fighting is all about.
…[/B]

There are many references to “Chang” who introduced BL to Yip Man in this article. Chang is Mandarin for the Cantonese surname, Cheung. I thought I’d post the link here because outside of the TWC circle and the stories from Duncan Leung and a few others I hardly ever hear about William Cheung’s role in making WC famous in HK. Who knows why he’s rarely mentioned.
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/WSL_BL.pdf
PR

Ernie · February 2, 2005, 10:30pm

WSL and possible boxing influence

Victor,

Just want to ad my 2 cents on WSL and possible boxing influence

I have managed to collect quite a bit of footage on WSL and some of his early private students, and there are some very clear distinctions in the way he moved in comparison to most other Wing chun I have crossed paths with.

What I can see that WSL picked up from boxing was the understanding of footwork, timing, and ballistic motion

His footwork, the way he moved, the directness with very subtle angle changes, the way he could go straight in yet quickly shift and cut if there was any obstruction, very BJD in mentality.

But it was all wing chun structure very clear and visible in his frame work, his body lines were right our of the forms, with aliveness and explosiveness added, David P has this same body look when he moves.

WSL could cut in with his elbow down structure and let the structure trap the person while both hands were free to hit, hard and clean, like skimming on top of the pressure not letting it pin you to the ground or needed to move around to the outside.

If you ever witness and footage of his BJD form and the speed and power he uses, then you get a glimpse of what I’m taking about

It’s like he cultivated directness to a very high degree based on his ability to set up distance and timing and explosive footwork to close the gap.

He was very fluid and light on his feet just could torque and ground at a instant and still it looked like nothing more then a very athletic version of SLT or CK. pure text book wing chun

It’s the spirit in which he did it; he had a goal, not to just do a pretty form but to use his body mechanics to terminate the person in front of him.

The footwork itself consist of 5 basic variations but the development of those simple footwork ideas and the spirit in which you use them is something else

If you ever have a chance to work with David P trust me it’s worth very eye opening, of all the WSL people out there, and even though my own sifu is in a world all by himself, there is something very special about the way David breaks it down, I am lucky enough to have been there first hand and have enough video from him [very generous man] to study and build on.

Ultimatewingchun · February 2, 2005, 10:43pm

Good post, Ernie.

And sort of what I was expecting to hear…

although you certainly added some important details.

The part about BJD is right on…I have noticed (and sometimes use) both BJD and Dragon Pole footwork and strategy when coming in empty-handed.

In fact..one of the clips of Myron and myself that I left out of the first batch of videos…wherein I defend against two hook punches…you could swear that the body structure I use on the first counter-hit came right out of the Dragon Pole techniques and footwork.

Never even thought about it in those terms before (regarding the Dragon Pole) until I saw the tape later, for the first time…maybe I’ll post that clip along with the next set of videos.

As regards this:

“WSL could cut in with his elbow down structure and let the structure trap the person while both hands were free to hit, hard and clean, like skimming on top of the pressure not letting it pin you to the ground or needed to move around to the outside.”

Also very similar to what I’ve been doing when I fight “in the middle”…as opposed to what I do when on the outside flank.

But sounds more pronounced…will work with that a bit more in the laboratory.

BTW…what’s the title of David’s book?

Kevin_Bell · February 2, 2005, 10:54pm

If its David’s Book it is:

"Look beyond the pointing finger… The Combat Philosophy of Wong Shun Leung.

Kevin_Bell · February 2, 2005, 10:56pm

Actually Ernie i believe there is some footage of WSL and Clive doing the BJD form on Clive’s website. Unfortunately its a little grainy but thanks go to Clive for putting it up for the rest of us to see.

Ernie · February 2, 2005, 11:19pm

Victor,
You know I don’t do the lineage flag waving stuff, not my style leave that for the drones =)

But I have and still do a ton of research on the training methods of the WSL guys and cross reference it to what I’m learning, then see if it produces the results that are effective in a pressure environment,

So far bro the man was on to something real nice!
The more I coach people and seeing how fast they get it and can apply it the more impressed I am, one thing is if I can do it, I’m a blend of physical conditioning, natural ability and a very sick work ethic.

But to see regular cats pick it up after a few months and go in and bang with the stuff is nice.

Now I have been taught that the body mechanics and power, mental intent and strategy of the weapons is directly connected to everything I do in wing chun, either by specific body mechanic or expression of the idea.

For example once you teach a person pole and get them doing drills and sparring the weapon the feel very heavy and connected, stable in motion or just sitting.
This feeling can then and should transfer into there empty hands, the ability to send power all in one action [as in the focus of the pole] should translate into there punching / po pai/ pushing / pulling and stepping in footwork

The blades change things since you do not need to be grounded or as much body mechanic to slash or stab, you need to clear your body out of the way while you angle and attack [3 actions in 1 motion]

This is were you get perpetual alive constant motion, no longer a fixed target or posture, yet still mentally and physically centered and balanced able to move and adjust on the fly while you relate to the target

Problems happen when people do the [forms] dead and with fixed patterns and rhythm. The kill the flow.

But when your goal to terminate the person in front of you is primary, then the forms are things that happen on the way to support the goal not the goal itself

Since there is no fixed position in a fight [especially a weapons fight] the flow and relation with a clear goal is key

There are drills that draw this out, and then freestyle sessions to dial in the timing, and my research continues =)

Ultimatewingchun · February 3, 2005, 3:50am

Thanks, Kevin…I’m going to look for the book.

sihing · February 3, 2005, 5:21am

did WSL ever…make any comments/assessments on his fighting younger brother William Cheung’s skill as a fighter and/or Wing Chun practitioner and visa versa regarding William Cheung making comments on his older fighting kung fu brother. Just curious as I haven’t really heard any yet, just that Bruce asked Wong if he though he could beat Cheung yet, before Bruce died, and that Moy Yat considered Cheung the top fighter of the 3.

Those pictures of the two of them fooling around (its on Ernie’s site also) semi sparring per say. Was that real or just foolin, as in some of the pic’s there are smiles by either of them?

I have the Science of Infighting video, and found similarities between some of the TWC stuff and Wong’s Wing Chun, the footwork in WSL was interesting also.

James

Ernie · February 3, 2005, 6:48am

Originally posted by sihing
[B]did WSL ever…make any comments/assessments on his fighting younger brother William Cheung’s skill as a fighter and/or Wing Chun practitioner and visa versa regarding William Cheung making comments on his older fighting kung fu brother. Just curious as I haven’t really heard any yet, just that Bruce asked Wong if he though he could beat Cheung yet, before Bruce died, and that Moy Yat considered Cheung the top fighter of the 3.

Those pictures of the two of them fooling around (its on Ernie’s site also) semi sparring per say. Was that real or just foolin, as in some of the pic’s there are smiles by either of them?

I have the Science of Infighting video, and found similarities between some of the TWC stuff and Wong’s Wing Chun, the footwork in WSL was interesting also.

James [/B]

ah the can your daddy beat up my daddy sand box stuff hmmm
no comment :rolleyes:

sihing · February 3, 2005, 7:33am

Originally posted by Ernie
ah the can your daddy beat up my daddy sand box stuff hmmm
no comment :rolleyes:

You assume too much too quickly.

Pure curiosity, that’s all. I was always interested in the Cheung/Lee relationship since there was a great respect by Bruce towards Cheung, as is also true of Bruce towards Wong. But haven’t heard what the two of them thought of one another. If I were to speculate, just for the fact that Cheung was larger and lets say “equally skilled” the advantage would logically have to go towards him, but really who knows unless you have seen the two of them in their primes, one of those things you think about for a couple of seconds once every couple of years.

James

crimsonking · February 3, 2005, 10:47am

Originally posted by Ernie
[B]Victor,
You know I don’t do the lineage flag waving stuff, not my style leave that for the drones =)