Its been said that people that perform in Demo’s can’t fight. Let’s use Jet Li as an example because you could call most of his movies one big demo of his fighting abilities. My question is what does he have to do or add to make himself a fighter?( that is if you believe demo people aren’t fighters) Ya Ya I already know he would have to get in the ring and spar/fight whatever you call it, but my point is when he does this what attributes would be added to his repertoire that he already possess, speed, flexibility, power.
This thread is not about Jet Li, but I am using him as an example, since most of us here have seen him in action…
I think this is a good question. Jet Li is an example of someone that has movements light years ahead of anyone else. But probably he is not a fighter. The same goes for Jackie Chan. It’s not relevant if they are or not for the sake of this discussion.
A long time ago I read of an American fighting team (standard kickboxing, Karate types) that went to mainland China. They met some top Wu Shu guys and worked with them. They found they could beat these guys fairly easily. So then they did an experiment. They sparred each day with these guys for three months. After that they said the Chinese fighters were a pretty good match for the Americans. They said just fine points relating to distancing and timing and seeing things were missing.
Still that’s not to say if one of those guys was attacked in a bar or on the street that he couldn’t do a lot of damage because they are fast and they are strong and they got the moves. But in a competitive ring situation it’s a totally different kind of fight. For Karate tournaments it’s sometimes a hit and run kind of match and sometimes not. For Thai boxing you need the hard conditioning, otherwise you will get winded and your shins won’t be able to take it. Furthermore without heavy duty sparring you risk getting knocked out in the first 10 seconds.
If a guy walks up to a non-fighter martial artist in a bar and starts a fight then there are a lot of examples where such a person has been successful. There are other examples where people who were considered to be masters (even in Wing Chun) have been beaten up on the street. For a non-fighter, if you can get the guy to play your game or to underestimate you then you can succeed. Fighting Thais in a ring setting is a different story. Thais on the street or in a bar are also able to defend themselves of course.
My Hung style teacher said there was a Northern style-fighting master in Toronto who had quite a good reputation for fighting. So one day a large Caucasian confronted him when he was walking down the street. The guy walked up to the masters and said I hear you can fight. Then he immediately threw a low kick. The master tried a low foot block but missed. So then the guy slams the master against a car with a strong push. So the master instinctively shot a eye thumb attack to the attacker’s face. But everything went wrong that day. The guy bit his thumb. During this commotion the restaurant owner, in front of whose place this was happening (in Toronto’s Chinatown), rushed out before any more damage could be done and hit the guy over the head with a steel frying pan and that ended the fight. After that the Northern style master didn’t show his face anymore.
Yes, I agree with your responses Ray. It would be an interesting experiment to take a Wu Shu Guy and see how long it would take to make a fighter out of them. Even Bruce Lee realized that a Ballet Dancer could fight if the right attributes were taught. Timing and control of distancing are some of the most important things, more important than conditioning, although in competitions this is the deciding factor in most cases, due to rules applying. When I teach the advance students I emphasize to them that when ever they are practicing a technique in a prearranged manner that they should also pay attention to the timing, distancing, and set up of their partners, this way they train themselves not only to perfect a particular application but to work the attributes of perception and distance control. When they start to apply this in a sparring environment then they will be more capable to handle the situation than if they were just working on technical perfection. The one advantage I think we as WC players have over most MA out there is our ability to overwhelm them with the explosiveness of the techniques WC has, and in which the non telegraphic way we apply the movements of the art, it’s the one that you don’t see that knocks you out.
“My question is what does he have to do or add to make himself a fighter?”
Answer: Get rid of the desire to be a demo man.
The desire to be a fighter requires not wasting time training things that don’t reflect realism.
Which raises the question: Now that you’ve been involved in the martial arts for presumably many years - how many demos have you seen lately actually reflect something you might ever see in a real streetfight or NHB event?
And how much of the demos you’ve seen lately don’t meet that standard?
There is no desire to be “demo man”. But at times there is a need to demonstrate to people that are curious as to what one has to offer. If Jet Li can actually perform most of what we see him do on screen, as we all know some of the moves are totally unrealistic in the fact that he is flying at times, how would his abilities translate in him being a real fighter and if he is lacking what would he need to do to be a real “fighter”, OR, is this not possible?
My main point in this thread is lots of people that commute this forum have the belief that people in a demo have no valid fighting skills. This may or may not be true, but the real question is can they learn to fight if they are lacking, and what is needed to fill that gap. We all have our thoughts on what makes or breaks a real fighter, so please tell us all what you think a real fighter needs. I’ve already stated my requirements, so has Ray. I’m curious to hear more…
Victor,
Is there really a waste of time performing movements with a partner, even though they are at times in a prearranged manner? From what I understand even the best of the best boxers still practice the basics under a prearranged manner, like hitting the focus mitts in a pattern, jab jab bobb hook…Yes some demo’s are of a flashy sort, and I agree that these are mostly a waste of time, but not all are like this. The one I posted on this forum showcased a realistic set of movements that would and can actually be applied in a realistic manner, although I will admit some of the high kicks were added in for more special effect, it’s still good to know how and when to apply these movements.
Originally posted by sihing …it’s still good to know how and when to apply these movements.
This statement inspires me to say, again, that strategy is the key.
Strategy is the ‘how and when’.
If a person (the demo guy) has the skill to perform the techniques and the ability to do so with power and accuracy (not as obvious in a demo) the only thing that is missing, IMO, is strategy, the ability to use those techniques tactically.
If the demo guy lacks the ability to tactically employ his skill, then he’s just a demo guy.
AmanuJRY,
Yes I agree, if the demo guy can’t apply his movements/tech/concepts in a random atmosphere, with real pressure being applied then he/she will only be a demo person, but with that said, it still takes some sort of timing and distancing abilities to perform the demo well, so in some sorts the demo man is on his/her way there already. Strategy is the difference and being able to apply it well against all comers…
The difference between doing a demo [ cold static technique ]
Or expressing yourself
Expressing your body mechanics explosiveness timing sensitivity and intent , since it’s a demo most of all control .
Really good people do this [ they] come through not just the motion
Like some one just singing the right notes or some one singing with soul and expression
Talent will show , functional talent will stand out ,
“Yes some demo’s are of a flashy sort, and I agree that these are mostly a waste of time, but not all are like this. The one I posted on this forum showcased a realistic set of movements that would and can actually be applied in a realistic manner, although I will admit some of the high kicks…”
(James)
My comments about realism and demos was not directed at you personally - haven’t yet watched what you posted.
As to this:
“Victor,
Is there really a waste of time performing movements with a partner, even though they are at times in a prearranged manner? From what I understand even the best of the best boxers still practice the basics under a prearranged manner, like hitting the focus mitts in a pattern, jab jab bobb hook…”
I agree that these kinds of pre-arranged drills are useful…but moving on from prearranged to more spontaneity - as part of a “demo” situation - is much more interesting/informative to the spectator than just doing that which is pre-arranged…especially those spectators with any fighting skills and background.
Today’s class was a perfect example…a visitor made the comment to me that my guys were doing a prearranged drill and that fighting could involve anything - not just the move that they were practicing over and over again. I told him to keep watching…then the guys were shown a different fighting scenario - and were told to practice this second one over and over…Followed by a differentiation drill wherein either the first attack OR the second attack would be coming…without advance notice.
Later on he got to see myself and some of the more senior students take the first two scenarios as a starting point (which dealt with punches and kicks)…into a realm of pretty much anything goes standup TWC sparring…fighting in the clinch…and wrestling on the ground.
The final result was that by the end of the class he got to see much more than pre-arranged scenarios.
Michelle Yeoh wouldnt need to- I would be her most humble and obedient servant-atleast for a day.
BTW- I did a demo once with a top wushu friend- a senior of Jet Li-
he is very athletic. We didnt rehearse- he said we didnt need to.
At one point- he attacked- he fell down when he made contact with my controlled hand. I have known several other top flight wu shu folks. Very conditioned and coordinated---- but their training does not teach them martial intent, distancing, coordinating or
reflexes.
They would have to relearn-though their athleticism and past discipline in training regimens could help them some in relearning and handling uncoordinated folks..
sihing wrote: “Its been said that people that perform in Demo’s can’t fight.”
**That doesn’t make sense – a fighter that puts on a demo certainly can fight (his fighting proves that). However, it is true that just because someone can put on a “good” demo it doesn’t mean they can fight (examples abound).
“My question is what does he have to do or add to make himself a fighter?”
**Simple, he has to fight.
"There is no desire to be “demo man”. But at times there is a need to demonstrate to people that are curious as to what one has to offer. "
**Then do an exhibition rather than a demo. Do boxers do demos (have someone step in with a jab to show how they would deal with it)? How, then, do they show what they have to offer? By doing an exhibition of skill – through fighting by sparring in the ring. Many BJJ BB’s spar with everyone that attends their seminars.
“My main point in this thread is lots of people that commute this forum have the belief that people in a demo have no valid fighting skills. This may or may not be true, but the real question is can they learn to fight if they are lacking, and what is needed to fill that gap.”
**Everyone has fighting skills, even folks with absolutely no training. So the question isn’t “can someone fight” (sure they can) but has their training significantly improved their fighting skills? A demo won’t tell us that; only through fighting as part of one’s training can we tell that. No one can answer your question about “what they are lacking” and “what they need” – these are dependent on the individual (there is no universal response). Besides, any answer is a theoretical one and we don’t need more theory and more specualtion. Get out there and see for yourself. Go fight. You’ll then know the answer.
Originally posted by t_niehoff **Simple, he has to fight.
I think you are over-simplifying it.
So does that mean anyone who has ever been in a fight is a ‘fighter’? And does that mean they’re good at it?
Originally posted by t_niehoff
**Then do an exhibition rather than a demo. Do boxers do demos (have someone step in with a jab to show how they would deal with it)? How, then, do they show what they have to offer? By doing an exhibition of skill – through fighting by sparring in the ring. Many BJJ BB’s spar with everyone that attends their seminars.
**Everyone has fighting skills, even folks with absolutely no training. So the question isn’t “can someone fight” (sure they can) but has their training significantly improved their fighting skills? A demo won’t tell us that; only through fighting as part of one’s training can we tell that. No one can answer your question about “what they are lacking” and “what they need” – these are dependent on the individual (there is no universal response). Besides, any answer is a theoretical one and we don’t need more theory and more specualtion. Get out there and see for yourself. Go fight. You’ll then know the answer.
[/B]
Though I agree with the rest of your post, I would argue that whether you call it a ‘demo’ or an ‘exhibition’ it’s the same thing (demo being short for demonstration, and all), therefor it’s a matter of semantics. But, I’m totally with you in regards to the nature of the ‘demo/exhibition’. Instead of a flashy display of acrobatics or choreography [sp?] a gritty, true display of skill against live resistance is more impressive to those who are in it for ‘reality’ than ‘show’.
The problem with a demo that is random is the audience would not see much. On a personal level, to try and wait for the attack and apply a movement(and make it look good for the crowd, which is the whole point of a demo, crowd appeal) would be too risky, I would just attack and finish the attackers off one by one before they had a chance to get the attack off, much like a real situation. The audience would not get much of a education or idea of what WC is or what seperates it from other MA. I’ve done enough demo’s to know that even when the attacks are somewhat controlled, the response isn’t, and at times the attacker has been hurt, just due to the excitment of the event, especially for those not use to that environment.
Terence,
Your post reflects the opposite of most of your previous post from the past. Now you say that everyone has fighting ability even though one may not even have training in a fighting art. Before, the absolute was if you weren’t fighting then you can’t fight, period. Like AmurJRY said, demo or exibition, it’s all labels and really means the same. I would have no problem performing in a demo with real random attacks, if the attacker had no problem taking a shot here or there then I have no problem too, but like I said earlier, it is a demo, and it’s purpose is to show the public something they may not have seen before and to gain interest in what is being demonstrated.
Your post reflects the opposite of most of your previous post from the past. Now you say that everyone has fighting ability even though one may not even have training in a fighting art. Before, the absolute was if you weren’t fighting then you can’t fight, period.
**Anyone can fight (most people had fights in high school, for example), the question is whether they have good fighting skills (which enable them to defeat skilled fighters, someone with superior attributes, etc.). Better fighting skills come from fighting as part of your training. It’s like saying everyone has strength – they do, to some degree. But if one wants to increase their strength significantly, there are some things they absolutely need to do.
Like AmurJRY said, demo or exibition, it’s all labels and really means the same. I would have no problem performing in a demo with real random attacks, if the attacker had no problem taking a shot here or there then I have no problem too, but like I said earlier, it is a demo, and it’s purpose is to show the public something they may not have seen before and to gain interest in what is being demonstrated.
**A demo with “real random attacks” isn’t fighting; if it were, then what is the problem with just fighting?
AmanuJRY wrote:
I think you are over-simplifying it. . . So does that mean anyone who has ever been in a fight is a ‘fighter’? And does that mean they’re good at it?
**Obviously there is more to becoming a very good swimmer than just getting in the pool – but that’s a necessary and essential requirement for improving one’s swimming skill. And anyone that gets in the pool regularly, regardless of their level, can legitmately call themselves “a swimmer”.
Ok, then, modify the original question to ‘what does it take to make a demo guy a good fighter?’
There was a demo I saw once from some guys in Europe (LT/WT guys) in which they started out going all out, full speed and then all of a sudden went into ‘slow motion’ showing their techs and then bounced back into full speed again (just like if you slowed down your vhs at a certain spot). They did it several times throughout the sequence. I found that to be a pretty impressive demo.
Also, there are some vids of Emin Boztepe about ten years back in Europe, where he did an ‘exhibition’ style of demo, those were also pretty good as demos go.
Terences answer would be they have to fight but it’s never really defined against who or with what intensity? Trying to really take your training partner’s head off or to really bust their knee or break their arms doesn’t make a lot of sense. Once the members of a club know each other, they become like a family and no one really tries to hurt the other guy.
Originally posted by YongChun
[B]Terences answer would be they have to fight but it’s never really defined against who or with what intensity? Trying to really take your training partner’s head off or to really bust their knee or break their arms doesn’t make a lot of sense. ONce the members of a club know each other, they become like a family and no one really tries to hurt the other guy.
Ray [/B]
I see it this way too. While minor injuries will sometimes occur, and there may be occasional non-trivial accidents, at least no serious injury is intended in the kind of school I admire. I agree with my own teacher who says it is okay to hit and be hit in training, but in never in anger. It takes quite a lot to build the kind of trust necessary for hard training in relative safety, but very little to destroy such trust.
If I were to see a “demo” where the participants were unable to control themselves, unwilling to contain their actions, or were furthermore setting forth to seriously hurt each other, I would avoid such a club, school, or teacher like the plague. For that matter, I would probably avoid such a demo. Too much “fight club” for my taste, interests, and values. This would be as true now as before I began martial arts training. To each their own.
