[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1084637]
If we let our opponent to enter our kicking range, that will be our fault to start with. To be able to guard our territory is the most important training in TCMA. Again, by watching our opponent’s weight distributation, we can make the fight “simpler”.[/quote]
Then guarding against a jab becomes irrelevant.
[QUOTE=shaolin_allan;1084634]Excellent points and the reason why i started this thread. I agree pak sao and punch would be the first and simplest answer. I was just wondering of some other methods to work against the jab.[/QUOTE]
Pak Sau is good. Not being there is much better.
“Best way to block a punch is no be there.” Mr. Myagi
[QUOTE=couch;1084688]Pak Sau is good. Not being there is much better.
“Best way to block a punch is no be there.” Mr. Myagi[/QUOTE]
Against a jab? 
I can jab all day long, keep moving, cause if your only response is to move out of the way, you’ll be tired out long before I stop jabbing. Takes less energy to throw out a jab than it does to move your entire body.
[QUOTE=shaolin_allan;1084624]I know everyone is always worried and/or focused on either learning grappling or learning anti-grappling when doing wing chun. what would you say the simplest techniques are to be able to work against a good street boxer who keeps throwing fast jabs and pulling his hand back before it could be controlled?[/QUOTE]
Personally, and I have found this to work quite well, I attack the attacker. Punching the weakspots of the jab hand and arm works better than paksau imho. Then build your attack to charge straight through the jab into the body. On the possibility of this not working, just kick the boxers lead lead so his jab can’t reach you, follow through with chong kuen!
Don’t waste your time trying to catch the thing unless you have caught that fly with your chopstix first! 
Does nobody here remember the three step punching??? Jeeze!
You defend against a boxer throwing a jab using the same general idea’s a boxer would use. Just using wing chun hands instead of boxing hands. Why would you do anything else? No one has more experience defending against jabs than boxers. Why try to reinvent the wheel?
[QUOTE=hunt1;1084702]You defend against a boxer throwing a jab using the same general idea’s a boxer would use. Just using wing chun hands instead of boxing hands. Why would you do anything else? No one has more experience defending against jabs than boxers. Why try to reinvent the wheel?[/QUOTE]
Interesting. My point is if you know whats coming why are you defending it at all??! Makes no sense to me.
[QUOTE=LSWCTN1;1084702]Does nobody here remember the three step punching??? Jeeze![/QUOTE]
Dunno about that, but in LSWC we do have something known as Battle Fist! This is a great attack against the jab, especially if the boxer is quite square-on…
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1084710]Interesting. My point is if you know whats coming why are you defending it at all??! Makes no sense to me.
Knowing whats coming and being able to do something about it are two totally different things.
[QUOTE=shaolin_allan;1084668]Phil why bring it up and not go into it? To make us jealous? lol[/QUOTE]
Good one. 
No, just tired of non fighters “typing” how is should be done.
I’ll put a clip of how to deal with a really fast jab here:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wckcg/
The requirement to join this group is that you send/upload to youtube, etc., a clip of you doing WC.
That way people who criticize and don’t show how it should be done are excluded.
Good fighters don’t simply jab. They stick and move. A well placed “damaging” kick at a target near the lower edge of your peripheral vision can be hard to pull off on a moving target. And if you kick him that doesn’t guarantee he’ll be stopped. We all including me, demonstrate something like a pak da, lop da and stop.
In the real world one punch or kick doesn’t always stop a fight. Fighters can take lots of punishment, especially with the adrenalin surge. We see fighters in the street and in the cage take all sorts of hits and still continue. So that one kick to a really fast jab may not work. Here’s another scenario, you’ve injured your leg during a street fight and you can’t kick? You’ll have to use your hands to deal with the jab then. 
As a boxer I agree with all the points that have been made here and suggest that WC people do just that.
[QUOTE=jesper;1084677]Given that WCK is a close quarter combat system, why would I try to keep him outside his punching range. which coincidently is also my favorite range ?[/QUOTE]
You can take advantage on your
If there is a conflict such as your strength is also your opponent’s strength, you have to make your own judgement.
[QUOTE=AdrianK;1084689]Against a jab? I can jab all day long, keep moving, cause if your only response is to move out of the way, you’ll be tired out long before I stop jabbing. Takes less energy to throw out a jab than it does to move your entire body.[/QUOTE]
It takes more energy for me to move my head/torso and cover up than it does for you to protect your head and move your feet and hands WHILE trying to chase me down/track me?
I wonder why the puncher can only sustain punching for so long until they have to stop - but the defender at the time can cover up, move, etc the whole time and longer? It has to do with energy expenditure.
“Punches in bunches.” (Not forever).
[QUOTE=couch;1084806]It takes more energy for me to move my head/torso and cover up than it does for you to protect your head and move your feet and hands WHILE trying to chase me down/track me?[/quote]
Tracking someone is a whole lot easier than timing and reacting to someone.
A jab:
1.) Doesn’t always need to use the torso
2.) And when it does, it doesn’t always need a dramatic movement of the torso. Its not always or even often used as a powerful strike
3.) A Boxer’s head really shouldn’t move, a boxer should keep his chin tucked when throwing the jab.
4.) Anyone who has fought before and hell, even plenty of people who haven’t, can tell you that it takes more energy out of you when your opponent is the one dictating the pace of the fight.
5.) Jab -> Dictating the pace, Evasion -> Having to react at my pace.
[quote=]I wonder why the puncher can only sustain punching for so long until they have to stop - but the defender at the time can cover up, move, etc the whole time and longer? It has to do with energy expenditure.
“Punches in bunches.” (Not forever).[/QUOTE]
To be honest, there are shots that you throw hard, and shots that you don’t. The jab is usually one of those that you don’t, and really doesn’t require much energy at all. Certainly not as much as moving your entire body, but whatever.
Anyways, point is that constant evasion isn’t a solution. Unless you really believe you can perfectly evade the punch output of a normal fighter.(which is ridiculous)
Evasion is great, but it has its time and its place. No point in moving just to move out of the way. You need to counterattack sometime or another.
wow we are getting some good replies on this thread and input surprisingly. While I was sparring a boxer the one thing that seemed to work for me is the takedowns that I learned in Wing Chun. Even though I found quick jabs tough to handle being that close I was able to tie the striking arm up and use the trips while i tried to get shots in.
[QUOTE=shaolin_allan;1084824] tie the striking arm up.[/QUOTE]
IMO, this is the best approach. If you can wrap your opponent’s arms (like an octopus wraps around prey) and temporary disable his striking ability, you can then consume him slowly after that.
[QUOTE=AdrianK;1084811]Tracking someone is a whole lot easier than timing and reacting to someone.
A jab:
1.) Doesn’t always need to use the torso
2.) And when it does, it doesn’t always need a dramatic movement of the torso. Its not always or even often used as a powerful strike
3.) A Boxer’s head really shouldn’t move, a boxer should keep his chin tucked when throwing the jab.
4.) Anyone who has fought before and hell, even plenty of people who haven’t, can tell you that it takes more energy out of you when your opponent is the one dictating the pace of the fight.
5.) Jab -> Dictating the pace, Evasion -> Having to react at my pace.
To be honest, there are shots that you throw hard, and shots that you don’t. The jab is usually one of those that you don’t, and really doesn’t require much energy at all. Certainly not as much as moving your entire body, but whatever.
Anyways, point is that constant evasion isn’t a solution. Unless you really believe you can perfectly evade the punch output of a normal fighter.(which is ridiculous)
Evasion is great, but it has its time and its place. No point in moving just to move out of the way. You need to counterattack sometime or another.[/QUOTE]
I never said that constant evasion is the key. It was offered as another option. It’s bloody hard to hit someone who keeps moving and running away until they get a chance to attack. I have sparred experienced Tae Kwon Do folk and it’s hard to get anything off while they move around.
I’d like to try and add a few things, if possible. I’m not trying to argue either way, but I thought the extra info might add something to the discussion.
I have been doing Muay Thai and straight boxing for a few years now. In the process i’ve learned quite a few variations of the jab. The jab is the bread and butter of an outside fighter like me, so it was always to my advantage to learn to use it in as many ways as is effective. I’m not going to write a treatise on the jab as it can become quite exhaustive trying to put all the nuances of punching in writing.
With a step typically uses a step and drag pattern, allowing people with quick feet to add the extra forward momentum to their punch. Without, on the other hand, can be thrown from the shoulder in rapid succession. It isn’t powerful, but it isn’t meant to be. It is meant to be a feeler for range, your opponent’s defenses, and as a distraction so they won’t see you that you are setting up something more powerful.
The step and drag is just how it sounds, but i’ve always considered it weaker, albeit faster than the falling footwork. You use the forward momentum to punch straight through them and you keep pressing forward, using your back leg to set it up again if need be.
The falling footwork is more for catching them unaware if they don’t have their distance yet or are particularly slow, or have a hole in their defense. You step forward and strike just as that lead foot is landing, adding a forward and down energy to the strike. If I use this one it is usually a one-shot strike since instead of bringing my rear foot up to meet my lead, I step back to my original position with my lead foot. It would look almost like a thrust in modern fencing. I find it works particularly well if you know you’re gonna catch them right on the nose.
My favorite use of the stiff jab is for when someone is really good at keeping their chin tucked. You hit them with a good stiff jab in the middle of the forehead and they have no choice but to lift their head(and thus their chin) for a nice big strong-side punch.
Footwork is the same as if you are switching to make a muay thai kick with the left leg. You punch out, but as you do you quickly switch your feet so that your left leg is now behind, while your right is in front. This, in effect, turns your jab into a quick left cross.
Be warned, this will usually cause you to fall forward, but the footwork often confuses them so badly that you simply step back through with your left foot and kick with a right round or a right cross to the face.
Essentially, you are in a back stance. However, you want to make yourself look like you’re in a natural boxing stance. What this does it creates the illusion that you are way out of range with your jab. All you really have to do is shift your weight forward and do the kung fu equivalent of a front punch. You lean forward on the left leg and punch out as far as you can. If you do it right, they get really confused about how you can hit them even though you look very far away.
That’s all i’ve got time for at the moment. I can write more later if anything seems confusing or whatever. Unfortunately I have to go earn my pay, though.
I can’t believe there’s this much debate. You evade, deflect, block or jam, or intercept. No different than any other straight punch.
[QUOTE=Vankuen;1085239]I can’t believe there’s this much debate. You evade, deflect, block or jam, or intercept. No different than any other straight punch.[/QUOTE]
That’s kinda my thoughts as well.
Why not just move your head?