defending knee attack

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
1

how many of you rely on one leg stances or moving away to defend against knee kicks?

a more aggressive approach that WL offers thoughout the system involves drawing the knees together so that the two together reinforce one another. once this is done, various techniques are applied depending of course on what your opponent is doing. in the second pass of third form, after the sweeps(standing), this technique is applied with a straight punch to the body. in the first returning pass of lok low 1 a chopping technique is used(repeated 3 times) to attack the opponents knee. a similar variation is repeated in second form except this time the upward movement can either throw the opponent by catching their kick or can be used to defend your upper gates while applying a palm strike with the left hand.
these techniques are often superior to moving away 1 because they are unexpected and 2 they keep you in striking range. those of you in WL will find other variations as well and as i stated elsewhere they are designed to be interchanged depending on your opponents actions.,

2

get that knee out of there

hopefully if someone is coming at your knee forcefully, you get it out of the way. Supporting it with your other knee just means you will have two knees knocked out.

Knees are one of the keys to all MA, definitely want to keep them intact. moving out of the way while at the same time adjusting to a stance that would allow an immediate counter is preferred. Stepping back into single leg , allowing for a quick front / side/ low kick counter. Stepping back and retreiving your front leg to your side as in a void stance, chopping down the attack kick, which would cross the attackers body permitting a prompt counter punch or kick strike. Stepping up in to single leg while hooking the attacker’s knee kick upwards. Thus leaving multiple take down options resulting in mostly maiming apllications. Plenty of two persons to practice and answer just this question.

3

8step has a number of kick blocks that position your legs in a manner that redirects the blow/evades/or just blocks

4

pong lai

you cannot damage a knee supported properly by the other, especially if your timing is correct- moving into the attack. i have to add another reason to use this technique- to counter against those who believe they are like eggshells! moving to a single leg stance is an option a basic one, and also one that relies on your opponent reacting as you would like them to. one who renews their attack, feints the low kick, or uses the same or the other leg has a good chance of doing (real) damage to the leg you stand on. by moving into the attack you are not only completely safe knee-wise, you also disturb your opponent. as i said one leg stance is an option but it is basic or simple closing the knees is far superior- i think the problem you have may be related to never having been taught it, so it cannot possibly exist or maybe the fact that the attacks that coincide with it are not applicable to 2 person sets as instead of a simple counter your partner will be checking your sifu’s bone-setting knowledge!

i have to add also that one must consider the opponent ie. grapplers love the single leg stance for instance

5

flem,

the patela is not as strong as you think. i think pong lai is way more capable of using techs, then you think. research what you are saying.also where do you live?

6

Flem

Are you suggesting that a “knee support” is moving into a “yu Hwan Bo” stance? Trying to better understand what you mean by supporting the knee with the other. Placing the rear leg knee behind the or in back of the front knee? rear foot still remaining on the ground?

Even a basic move such as up and backwards onto a single leg, followed by a jumping roundhouse is pretty fast and powerful.
Practice the two person by aiming for below the knee, Bruised upper chins are better than popped knees.

7

Chrisreed

patella- i am completely aware of the knees weakness and strengths, and that was a point that i bypassed. most practitioners think the knee kick is the all powerful tech, especially when it concerns larger opponents. but knee attacks are more difficult to pull off than most people think. take UFC 2 (i think) where keith hackney was being charged by the somo wrestler, he repeatedly applied strong low side kicks and all failed- why? because unless the joint is locked the is not vulnerable to astraight on attack. the exception is a stroke similar to a roundhouse kich that attacks the patella from the side- knocking it around the knee- but this requires that little or no weight be on the leg otherwise the ligament tension will hold it in place. the other option is a side attack- this of course depends on the relatve position of each practioner all of these and others are considered in the technique i mentioned the knees support one another by bracing against each other, the postures are performed with the thighs parallel to the ground(tightens patella attachments), and finally i have used this technique against full force blows. i don’t question pong lai’s ability to use technique i am only offering some, i thought it would be useful to those using this forum to exchange knowledge instead of insults-

i live at home- but my mind takes me wherever i want to be

8

pong lai

i am not familiar with the term you used, but what i am suggesting is that both feet and knees are placed together, flat on the floor. if you draw a line across your knees and a straight line from you to your opponent then the knee line will be on a 45 degree angle (towards yourself), in other words you present the corner to your opponent so that they would have to adjust their position to apply an attack to the side of the joint. 18elders seems very familiar with WL perhaps he can demonstrate the techniques i mentioned?

i am not knocking the tried and true single leg stance, but am only suggesting an alternative, as you are probably aware two skilled opponents will usually not rush in but will instead remain outside and feel out their opponent, if a preference in defense is detected then they will capitalize on it- in this case if i fake a low kick and see your response of lifting the leg then amay fake another and slide in with a renewed attack on your supporting leg-this is just an example you may be faster-- or i may choose another follow up the point is if you show me the single leg stance and i come in next time expecting- using the technique i mentioned- i’m nailed

9

flem you mean gway ma, i think. i will show pong lai.

10

where is everyone?
does everyone on this forum want it to be the jerry springer show?
i noticed that 66 people have viewed this post, are there only 2 mantis practioners interested in knee defense/attack? that cannot be, theres too many knee attacks in mantis
pong lai,
what happened to our discussion? did i suggest something you didn’t already know, i noticed you replied to my later post to tainan- come on lets make this a vehicle of learning not advertisement!

11

Close – it’s actually bai ma (crushed horse stance). Looks funny and feels funny at first but it’s actually quite stable.

When I first learned it I worried that it would be an impractical stance to move in and out of (I thought the stance “locked” the knees up) but have found that’s not the case.

12

Taking it on the knee

Axe blade kick-fu ren jiao:
back leg kicks straight forward with foot turned to the outside.

Round kick:
swinging back leg around like a baseball bat.

Side kick:
You know the one.

When the opponent does the round kick I pull my leg up and try to let the impact spread across a large area of the body. That is because this kick is usually done to the thigh or ribs, niether of which are strong enough to withstand the sledgehammer like blow(on me anyway).

For the other 2 kicks to the knee I block with my knee. Which is to say that I just let my knee get kicked and then move in with my own fighting recipe.

I see that people were talking about how easily the knee breaks and what pressure it can withstand without being broken.
I, to, have an opinion.

Years ago Pong Lai and I used to practice the axe kick exercise where the defender lifts up their leg and then returns with an axe-kick of his own. This goes back and forth like a pendulum.
Well the sad truth is that Pong Lai, the spring chicken, is too fast for this old mare.
He may not be aware that I was often bleeding under my kung fu pants from those kicks of his. Although it never stopped me from the practice. So I think my knee wasn’t damaged.

Also in sparring with others my lead knee has been kicked until the skin ripped and shredded, but that also didn’t do anything to affect my knee ability.
The only thing that has hurt my knee is being kicked on the thigh or the tendons of the calf. And the damage or knee pain only came out 1 or 2 days later. I suppose this is becuase something -insert technical jargon- was pulled off to the side. A little massage and a few days later I’m good as new.

So my conclusion is that it is hard to hurt a semi experienced fighter with a kick to their knee. It may be possible, but I’ve never even heard it happening to a MA friend’s friend.

On the contrary even a light kick to the groin will cause the opponent to lose concentration while a sledgehammer kick will put the fear of the lord into your opponents heart.

So forget the knee kicks and drop the bomb!

Beng bu:
3 groin kicks

lan jie:
4 groin strikes

Wah Lum forms are chuck full of them too.

lipi:
5 groin strikes

cha chuie:
the knee kick is to get a good angle to do a takedown while slamming your elbow into his face.

13

samantis,
i did not mean bai ma, i am familiar with WL terms- the postures that i refer to do not have named stance- it is the movement repeated 3 times at the end of the first pass of second form.

basicly you are simply putting your feet together/sliding them apart(yes i know you lift the lead knee), in application a slight angle is used so that the opponent must adjust for a good attack

thankyou tainan mantis

there is more proof of what i said earlier about the knee’s vulnerability- but it is not invincable- tainan you are either very lucky, very strong, have no sense of pain, or pong lai doesn’t kick right! ha ha ha i’m just kidding pong lai-- but your injury does bring up a valid point-abrasion/blood probably means that the kicks you recieved “brushed” your knee instead of penetrating - actually if you think about it a knee kick really needs to be rather “pushy” in order to move the knee enough to hurt it from the side- and of course this does not apply to a locked joint

14

flem

are you taliking about bai ma?
don’t remember that being in the second run of 3rd form?

15

flem

that clears it up, both knees and feet together with the knees bent.
not sure if i would like to do that to block but to each his own

16

That’s a good alternative defensive move but personally I believe you can’t hurt what you can’t hit. My reaction is to retreat the leg while blocking, another common move found in WL hand and weapons forms. Same goes for anything thrown at me, evade (with block) and counter. I’ve learned some good blocking techniques but for me I’d rather make like a ghost and disappear. I like the idea of setting up the retreating leg defense then switching to the reinforced leg. Keeping my opponent wondering what I’ll do next is one of my strategies.

17

Lu-Lu Fan-Che

Flem,
The technique in 2nd form you are talking about is called lu-lu. It defends against a technique called fan che. As in Da Fan Che. The fan che technique is a bit more lethal than a kick to the knee. Its usual targets are the top of the clavicle or the back of the neck.
There is a sonnet from 7* to describe it:

“Fan Che fast and Tang Lang dense,
Fan Che far and Tang Lang close,
When far attack and when close hit…”

In 7* it is described under the essential hand techniques of two person drills.
This move is usually done 3 times either moving forward or backward.

In the Tong Bei of Tien Jing(different from Shaolin) these type of techniques are very common.
Elsewhere it has been said by Mantis108 that Fan Che is a type of Tong Bei and the Tien Jing people seem to confirm it by their forms. Which is to say that this technique is most likely from a type of monkey style kung fu.

The following technique in 2nd form is known as Follow The Wind To Sweep The Leaves-Sun Feng Sow Ye.

18

Remove yourself from a static position and attack. A moving target is harder to hit. Remember step;stances should be used for transition and not for posing.Keep the mind and body lively and unpredictable.

volcano digital

brat

Medical Marijuana Dispencery

19

Tainan Mantis SHr SHong

Tainan Mantis Shr SHong;

STop making me blush! Ha-HA.

Though I admit at times knees were hit, the object for conditioning and drilling was not to hit the knee. Sometimes we were not able to pull up fast enough, thus were occasssionally tapped. When I first came over and began conditioning, you took plenty of advantage of me. Remember you had almost three years more of pounding than I.

Of course to each his own, but I am going to do all I can to protect my knee. One good angle shot from an experienced fighter and your knee, though may not be permanately damaged, sure will give the attacker his needed 5 seconds to followup and lay you out! Any fighter, experienced or not will somehow be hit in a confrontation. I would much rather place my body (muscle or bone) in the way than a joint (or vital organ).

Groin shots would be permitted in my tournament! If you cannot learn to protect that #1, than you are well deserved a shot. Try “Bi Mun Joiw” , made to just attack one testi, maim them not kill them.

Flem: From Tainan Mantis’ explanation of (Lu-Lu)your suggested technique, I can now understand what you meant.
When your feet are together, is your lead hand also attempting to block the knee kick downwards? What would be your quickest counter(s).

I will respond to your hook question as soon as my students confirm thw WL technique. Been a long time since I have been through those forms.

20

18elders

i don’t mean it as block- but a technique so that you don’t have to. it checks the low kick leaving both hands free to defend and attack. in case you missed my other posts check out the similar variations throuhout WL- lok low, to maim and throw,3rd to parry and punch , 2nd to defend high and palm also experiment with the lead knee that steps up and out. i have found this technique also useful to enter- similar to the bung bo step as it covers all gates simultaneuosly.

tainanmantis
i appreciate the insight, i was aware of it as a defense for fan che but i was unaware of the name, the trouble is, with me anyway is that i try to look at MA to defend against all styles and no styles so to speak. though i appreciate the impact of fan che and it’s possibilies most people will probably not use it, people outside kung fu any way