Defence against western boxing

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Hitman,

There is a saying - “perfect practice makes perfect…” as opposed to just practice makes perfect. The quantity of years, especially in this case, is almost meaningless. The ability to fight cannot be “taught”.

Ving Tsun is a system of fighting which allows us all to “discover” things which may be used to understand our fighting ability. You should master the basics of Ving Tsun and then, if fighting proficiency is what you are looking for, do the things necessary to facilitate this. As mentioned, you must find the people like minded to yourself and spar more. But I would advise that you take the approach of learning something from sparring. Don’t expect that just because you are learning Ving Tsun you are going to be good at sparring. We sometimes say “the crazy guy off the street” may have more Kung Fu that you! This is because of his intent. One does not realize how much courage and honesty it takes to put your hands on someone else, and especially how powerful your intent needs to be. Our character is attached to this.

Try not to be too literal about the solutions posted, as they are from the experiences of the poster. They can only be but a guide and you must find out on your own by your own experience. See if your boxer “friend” can slow it down for you so you can “see” and discuss this. Our VIng Tsun Chi Sao is an exercise that allows two people a laboratory to slow down and discuss things. Often times in full contact “cooperative” sparring (meaning not sparring at a tournament or contest level) someone with a successful technique is often not too willing to discuss this, but will use it until someone “figures out” how to counter it.

I am sorry your organization seems to “milk” students for money. Can you go into more detail about why you feel this way?

22

I would mainly think this is a timing problem. It sounds like the boxer is slipping your lead jab and answering with an overhand right, then usually a left hook. You’re getting tagged by the left hook because both of your hands are tied up dealing with his overhand right.

That is something boxers train pretty consistently, so his timing is better than yours on it. Normally, most straight boxer punches with elbows out are easy to deal with using biu jong structures, but the problem here is he’s timing the slip and overhand right at the same time as your jab, so you probably don’t have time to react properly, and are reacting when he’s already inside your reaction time with a wu hand pak sao. Then you’re wide open to the hook.

I’d suggest feinting the lead jab to try and draw out the overhand right rather than fully committing to the jab. Then you can deal with the overhand right with your left hand biu jong structure, while stepping toward your left to cut off the angle. Then you have a straight line to center jaw with the right hand, which will beat his longer route to you with the left hook.

This is one way of dealing with that problem with technical specifics.

Another option I’d say is train your jabs to be able to snap them better. A jab should be a punch that’s not telegraphed and too quick to slip effectively. Yours obviously isn’t.

Outside of that I’d agree with Terrence that you need to test all of this out sparring after you get the movements down so your timing improves.

23

I am sorry your organization seems to “milk” students for money. Can you go into more detail about why you feel this way?

The head of my school, master X, could apply his wing chun in a fight and his wing chun was very good. However, he liked to produce half-bucketful instructors in order to attract more students. Those instructors then taught us. He told us that what we had learnt was very deadly and we could defend ourselves in a fight. On his web site, he stated that you were learning self-defence. In his advert he claimed that he was teaching self-defence. Whenever some one enquried about the school, the replies were always the same. “You were learning self-defence and wing chun”.

We were show some techniques by master X in some seminars. He always using his saleman’s pitch and told us that those techniques were very deadly and we could defence ourselves. Bascially we were being brain washed into believing everything he said was correct, without question it. Those techniques would work, provided we had drilled them thousand of times against an un-cooperated partner and understand the mechanics behind them. He was showing us the techniques, instead of teaching us. We could save ourselves a lot of money by learning from a book, instead of attending his classes.

When we were doing the chi sau exercises. There was almost no explaination what we were supposed to do. We were told to do this and this. Bascially, we did the chi sau exercises totally wrong, unless our training partners had some ideas they were supposed to do. You could be making the same mistake for 5 years and no body would correct you.

We only learnt the forms in wing chun, but not the application and hidden meaning about them. Some of us did the forms totally wrong.
We could not ask any question, because we did not know what questions to ask.
I questioned master X about how effectively some of his techniques were in a real fight. I had demonstrated and proved to him that some of his techniques would not work that well in a real fight. He told me that I was being awkward and did not answer my questions.

Some of the students had been assulted on the streets, and most of them had forgotten their techniques during the fights. They fought like a 5 years old child or human punching bag. The teachers’ replies were always the same “anything could happen in a fight”. If the school was claiming to be teaching wing chun as a self defence. The students had learnt wing chun (self defence) for 3 years, then why were they behaving like a 5 years old in a fight and not using what they had learnt when fighting against untrained people?
Answer - we had not been taught properly.

My former flat mate was weak and slow. He did not do any exercise. He and his girlfriend both did not know a thing about martial arts. However, he could punch me at will and I could not stop any of his punch, that was before I learnt wing chun. After spending two and a half years learning wing chun. I still could not stop one of his punches hitting me. This led to his girlfriend telling me that: “your kung fu was useless! You need to find yourself another school!”
My flat mate told me that my kung fu stink, my teachers stink and my wing chun organisation was a BS organisation! It was a waste of time learning from master X. He should be my teacher instead! Even though he did not know a thing about martial arts! This was their opinion about me and master X’s kung fu. They made those comments, based on how I fight! Their point of views were: I have wasted my money and time learning from master X, when there were no improvement in my fighting skills. They were right!
My fighting skills has improved, since I left my former organisation and started questioning everything I had learnt.

Master X and other kung fu teachers could get away milking their students, because most of them did not know a thing about martail arts. They only wanted fast food kung fu and believing that they could defence themselves after 2 years or less, without putting in the hard work - sweat, blood, frustation, time and pain.

24

Hitman,

Sorry to hear about such an experience.

Although learning Ving Tsun cannot guarantee fighting ability, students can typically defend themselves against an unskilled opponent with just the basic Jong Sao (ready position) and chain punching up the centerline.

We say in Ving Tsun “don’t waste time”. Look for another instructor or school that more adequately meets your needs. Seek a relationship with the instructor and their senior students, one that instills confidence in your ability to meet your goals. Obviously, your current organization is not doing this. Go forward with humility, accepting your own responsibility as well as to why you are not where you should be. Two and a half years should be time enough to create a foundation. Try to be consisten - eliminate the “off and on”.

Good luck with your kung fu…

25

Hmmm sounds bad ! but you gained experience and can only go up and forward on your way..dont be disheartend. Theres a more out there keep looking , meanwhile keep punching bags :wink: bottom line , have a good punch regardless of what name it fights under :smiley:

26

From my perspective, it comes down to appreciating what it means to have a “game”.

A technique cannot defeat “a game”. It takes “a game” to defeat “a game”. What I mean by that is that - for example - if you are in someone’s guard, having some technique, a bite or footlock, won’t help if the other guy has a guard “game”. You need a complete in-the-guard game to survive and be successful in the guard. Similarly, while the sprawl is a great way to stop a shoot, it alone won’t help you against a good wrestler; you need a complete takedown defense “game” because a good wreslter has a complete takedown game. Tactics, techniques, attributes, etc. are all part of having a game.

Similarly, if you face a striker of any skill, they will have a complete stand-up striking game. A pak da, for example, won’t work unless it is part of a complete game. Just as a slip won’t be of much use for a boxer unless it is part of a complete game.

The only way to develop a game is by playing the game (sparring). And it helps if you have a trainer who knows how to help you develop a game (it can speed up the process). Developing a game is a problem solving process. There are no shortcuts and no one can tell you how to do it. You can only find your game yourself (those things that work for you, putting them together, etc.) through the hard work of playing the game against other skillful fighters.

Terence

27

In my experiences the most difficult boxers for a wing chun fighter to handle are the ones that uses alot of looping/hooking punching combination combined with angular footwork and body evasion (picture a young mike tyson). They are more than willing to give up centerline to deliver a powerful knockout hook even at the cost of taking a jab like punch. They cover up well (turtle) and use body faints to set up openings causing a wing chun fighter to commit early and misjudge timing. They don’t give a dam about creating a bridge or occuping centerline, their goal is just to hit you as direct as possible, ofetn going around any obstruction to find their target in order to knock you out.

What strategies would some of you guys recomend in the above situation?

In my opinion a good strategy is to continually step with your lead foot to the outside of his lead foot like in the clips below!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi-e3a2tw90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG1WC982Ma8

28

AGREED.

They are the toughest boxers to deal with - since they offer no extended arms/hands to bridge off from. They wait for you to attack the “center”…and then they hook/loop/uppercut/overhand around you. (Or they work their way into your space and attack with those punches blatantly, ie.- whether you’ve attacked first or not).

That’s just another reason why I punch into LINES with BOXING type leads and crosses - and NOT at their direct center…

as a way to get into closer wing chun range - AND CONTROL THE FIGHT AND THE TEMPO BY ATTACKING FIRST. And be prepared to block/capture/redirect their round punches with the following:

Im in the right neutral side (body) stance described earlier (OR A SIDE BODY FRONT STANCE) - and in a parallel position to the opponents leading left arm/left leg forward stance. (This example will also introduce us to a specific technique that is a trademark defense in TWC vs. hook punches). Suppose the opponent throws a left hook at my head. I lift my right foot, turn my main Centerline to face northeast, and step out moving east (and slightly north), placing my right foot down east of his left foot (the correct parallel foot placement) - while directly facing the point of contact on his punching arm with the imaginary horizontal line extending out from my solar plexus (which of course corresponds to our MAIN middle-of-the-body vertical centerline).

Now the point of contact referred to earlier is in this instance the spot right near the INSIDE of his arm where the elbow joint connects his lower and upper arm. I use my right arm to block and parry this area with BIL SAO that converts instantly at contact to a LOP SAO - while punching him in the face (or perhaps at his shoulder joint) with my left fist.

The punch came out on the western side of the Central Line and I blocked/redirected with bil/lop sao on my CENTERLINE (which is now being defined as simply another point along the Central Line). Upon reflection, one will discover that the overlapping definitions should not be a point of confusion. Both definitions are correct.

29

Dear all,
Thank for your commments. They are interesting.
Trapping does work against a boxer, but you will need a lot of practise to make it work. James Demile said that Bruce Lee trapped his hands when they first fought. He claimed to be the former boxing champion in the army of America.

Hitman

30

[QUOTE=k gledhill;731716]I would manouver as we do infront of the dummy ,to always try and be outside his strong hand [as long as possible] imagine hes the dummy and moving around in front of you ,not static. Try constantly facing your attacking line [ his head ]with chumkil in a side stance [ no lead leg ] trying to [ wait as mentioned ] for opportunity…Victors direction is similar to mine, only I describe it as seeing the body divided by a line ; fight one side of the body [his 1 arm v your 2 + a leg dont fight on equal terms]…manouver for the sides like the dummy shift without overturning to change direction at the last milisecond, etc.. to draw into over extension… be patient …you may be fighting his cardio levels too, this isnt as visible as we’d like but for boxing /rounds , pace yourself and see if he’s fit …look for telegraphed shots , read his way , beware feints to draw you…throw feints to see his response , ‘file them’ and then when you see something that you can exploit send the feint and follow in…parries with low line stop kicks [if kicking is allowed in this sparring session]
…manouver to the sides and never want to be front and center to HIS centerline ,because this means your fighting 2 armys coming from either side of your 1 , your turning to defend one and he attacks the other …or like having someone throw water at you …just manouver out of the potential path of water…try to always shift and be as evasive , lively, dont be robotic and dont use your arms like static blocks ..boxers FLOW because they are simply hitting , be simple back just use a tactical approach to manouver at the last second into turning punches across his armms if you can …, if you are your being attacked and ‘defending’ …try to counter attack his attack to take the attacking initiative away and ’ beserk’ him :smiley: but like liddel mentioned taking flak is ‘war’ so mind set yourself to attack him not defend, if you attack for 9 out of 10 seconds HE is defending for 9 IN THEORY LOL :smiley: hope it helps

vt is teaching the art of attack…the slt is the small angle in front of your body/head it should be impenetrable from elbows in and forearms covering hands centered…the chum kil is the larger triangle that takes the smaller slt triangle to the sides of the attacking line [ whtevr line comes first]
once you decide to go in you can adopt a lead leg and charge ! like a cavalry into the battle..
fight in this ‘bubble’ manouver the army ‘chumkil’ to the sides of the advancing army…use the techniques of simply striking across the arms or parrying these weak sides of the attacker…always manouver for this …once you see the weak flank you dont hesitate and get in to finish…like a machine gunner on a flank waiting for the advancing line to get close enough and have only the nearest to you being able to fight…wait for the distance /timing/ be ready to move if they try to flank you..be balanced and float like a butterfly sting like Mr Ali.

Theres a lot more but the tactics should help..dont fight facing like chisao TRAINING, we only do this face on to allow each other to strike across outr bridges and train good bong, paksao etc.. traps …BUT think to TACTICLY fight 1 arm/side when you use these chisao attributes…good distance to maintain while the guy retreats ‘stick to distance’ "stay with waht comes from the flanks and follow through as it retreats, trapping him so he cant bring his 2nd army back into the fight …hitting dont over stick for stickings sake..keep hitting with 2 hands after a parry…ATTACK , I think you get the idea now ?
In war you kill the general sitting at the top of the hill [ his head] and the army falls apart… so aim to kill the general asap dont spend time with the army itself .

http://home.earthlink.net/~wslnyc/[/QUOTE]

Hey k gledhill,

                  What stragegy would you use to fight the mike tyson type boxer abovewho uses angular footwork combined with looping punching combinations?