Decent light sparring vid

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

[QUOTE=BPWT;1238404]For some, Hendrik’s view of WCK history is wrong - and there’s nothing wrong with debating a point… but it feels to me that some people (JP in Arizona) deliberately post on Hendrik’s threads with the single intent of insulting the guy. Which is weird. Ignore his threads and posts if you don’t want to really engage (not a direct reference to you, tc101).[/QUOTE]

Please don’t drag me into this, I haven’t even posted on this thread. Some might say it’s ‘weird’ for one grown man to feel he has to defend another grown man that isn’t even under attack - as you are with Hendrik. It’s clear I don’t agree with Henrik’s views, or his relentless delivery (as a LOT of people clearly are) but I don’t post with the intent to insult anybody. And, I could argue that this is exactly what you are doing in the above post towards me by calling my actions intentionally insulting and weird (if I actually cared).

My advice would be speak for yourself, as we all should. Hendrik is a grown man and doesn’t need your defense. He’s not under attack and can obviously speak for himself. And I don’t need you to speak for me and my intentions for posting as you have or dragging my name into subjects when I’m not even involved in the discussion.

42

[QUOTE=BPWT;1238404]For some, Hendrik’s view of WCK history is wrong - and there’s nothing wrong with debating a point… but it feels to me that some people (JP in Arizona) deliberately post on Hendrik’s threads with the single intent of insulting the guy. Which is weird. Ignore his threads and posts if you don’t want to really engage (not a direct reference to you, tc101).[/QUOTE]

Please don’t drag me into this, I haven’t even posted on this thread. Some might say it’s ‘weird’ for one grown man to feel he has to defend another grown man that isn’t even under attack - as you are with Hendrik. It’s clear I don’t agree with Henrik’s views, or his relentless delivery (as a LOT of people clearly are) but I don’t post with the intent to insult anybody. And, I could argue that this is exactly what you are doing in the above post towards me - 'specially when I’m not posting on this thread.

My advice would be speak for yourself, as we all should. Hendrik is a grown man and doesn’t need your defense. He’s not under attack and can obviously speak for himself. And I don’t need you to speak for me and my intentions for posting as you have when I’m not even involved in the discussion.

43

[QUOTE=BPWT;1238404]To be fair to Hendrik, his recent posts have had a bit more clarity. For me, with that clarity I realize that much of what he talks about in his Wing Chun, is actually also in my Wing Tsun (and probably a lot of what he is talking about is present in most people’s WT/WC/VT too).
[/QUOTE]

Yes yes yes of course it is controlling or dominating the centerline is wing chun core strategy. Hedrik acts like no one gets this and he is revealing some long lost secret.

Hendrik uses his own terminology to describe things, and sometimes that makes things sound fairly complicated. In truth, when he boils things down to more concise videos and simpler posts, much of his material, IMO, is present in others training too. I think he would be the first to admit that it’s not rocket science, and often not exclusive to his version of Wing Chun.

He often uses analogies to try and make things clearer - which is good, but it is easy for some to take the analogy too literally. E.g. springs, coiled springs, rattan canes etc. these are just words/expressions to help build an image in the mind of what is happening. Our bodies are not really springs, not really canes, etc. You just need to take the idea behind them and apply it how we move, react, etc.

He makes things sound more complicated because he is making things more complicated. The wing chun I learned is very simple and that is what attracted me to it. He is taking the simple and trying to make it very very complicated.

I think he is trying to present an image of how he thinks in his mind things should work in his complicated way but that is not how they actually do.

For some, Hendrik’s view of WCK history is wrong - and there’s nothing wrong with debating a point… but it feels to me that some people (JP in Arizona) deliberately post on Hendrik’s threads with the single intent of insulting the guy. Which is weird. Ignore his threads and posts if you don’t want to really engage (not a direct reference to you, tc101).

I think when people resort to so called history to support their vision of how wing chun should work that is already a sign that they cannot really make it work themselves. If Hendrik could make his stuff work he would be posting videos of himself making his stuff work since he seems to enjoy posting videos of himself.

44

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238405]Many times I have inivite you to express and define

What is Wck?
[/QUOTE]

How many times have I told you wing chun is not something to define. You do not define what is boxing but you can recognize it easily and it is the same with wing chun. You are making what is called a category mistake.

What is good and bad in sparring? developed sparring skills ?

But you have not done that , instead keep on critic this is no good that cannot be define. Please share now.

I have already explained how I look at sparring to determine the quality of the sparring. Go back and read my post. This is what I learned how to do from working with various boxing trainers seeing how they look for things what they look for and so forth.

Fighting or sparring takes place on several levels including strategic, tactical and technical. The first thing I do is look at technical details since if you do not have good technique you cannot perform good tactics or perform your stragegy very well. Controlling the center is a strategy how you go about doing that involves tactics and those involve technique. Slapping your opponent is not good wing chun technique for example.

Didn’t Wsl the sifu of Jerry fight boxer with Wck?
Also please don’t tell me Jerry doesn’t know what he is doing.

WSL trained first as a boxer right?

I am not saying Jerry does not know what he is doing I am saying he is not sparring very well since he has poor form or technique, is making all kinds of fundamental mistakes like dropping his hand after striking, and is not really setting anything up. You may not appreciate these things since you probably would do the same as you have not learned to look for them. If he worked with a good fight trainer these things would be addressed.

Sifu Jerry Yeung is the founder and head coach of “Pure Ving Tsun (PVT)”. He first
met the Master of Ving Tsun, Wong Shun Leung Sifu in 1989, who
afterwards became Jerry’s coach and enlightened him on Ving Tsun and
inspired his passion for the traditional Chinese Martial Arts.
Like his teacher,

Jerry honed his Ving Tsun skills by competing in numerous contact competitions. He’s the 3 Times Sanda Champion

and the co-host of Kung Fu Quest II TV programme produced by RTHK.

Sounds great on paper but does not look so good in sparring.

45

[QUOTE=tc101;1238431]

I have already explained how I look at sparring to determine the quality of the sparring.

Go back and read my post.

This is what I learned how to do from working with various boxing trainers seeing how they look for things what they look for and so forth.

.[/QUOTE]

Please show me the link of the posts you refer to.

46

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238376]So, what is the good or bad in boxing or sparring ? What to look?[/QUOTE]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1238326&postcount=7

47

[QUOTE=tc101;1238326]From looking at them I can tell that they never worked with a trainer that developed their sparring progressively since that works out those things I refer to.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think very many WCK sifus fit the description of “a trainer that developed their sparring progressively”.

In fact, in most WCK families I’ve seen, that is typically left up to the students to figure out on their own. This means at the very least its going to take them longer, and its possible and common to avoid that development altogether.

48

You are using a boxer general rule to judge other art.

Is Slapping bad Wck technics? Is droping hands bad taekwondo? Not necessary. Do you know why it is not nessesary?

In that particular clip, why is Slapping is used? The is reason. And good one. In fact for generations wcners using slapping big time in friendly match.

[QUOTE=tc101;1238437]http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1238326&postcount=7[/QUOTE]

49

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238443]You are using a boxer general rule to judge other art.

Is Slapping bad Wck technics? Is droping hands bad taekwondo? Not necessary. Do you know why it is not nessesary?

In that particular clip, why is Slapping is used? The is reason. And good one. In fact for generations wcners using slapping big time in friendly match.[/QUOTE]

There are general rules that do apply to any stand up fighting for example looking away or closing your eyes is a mistake no matter your style since it will get you hit, same with dropping hands, having an open mouth will get your jaw or teeth broken, being off balance will get you hit, telegraphing for obvious reasons and so forth. One of the goals of a good progressive sparring training is eliminating these mistakes and that will increase your chances in fighting since it limits the other guys opportunities. Sparring is not just about knowing what to do but also about knowing what not to do.

Using bad form like slapping instead of punching only trains you to have bad form since that is what you are practicing and you are not practicing using good form. It is with good form or good technique that you develop power accuracy and so forth. I guess slapping is fine if you want to fight like little girls but if you want to practice punching someone with accuracy and power and so forth you need to practice doing that. That is what sparring is for to practice your fighting skills. You also do not get the same response whether you hit or miss with slapping as you do punching even light punching which is important for practicing set ups.

50

As from other thread, you always use general to judge .

Slapping is certainly not fight like a girl in Wck. But you don’t know.
Droping hand in taekwondo doing certain things. That too you don’t know.

As for closing eyes…etc common, those are just too junior stuffs.
I was open to see if you have something specifically advance to say but still it is all the production widget of stuffs.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYlVDGmjz7eM

You want to do mma or boxing looks Wck way, that is fine with me. But please don’t use that as Wck. It is not.

[B]Yes yes yes of course it is controlling or dominating the centerline is wing chun core strategy. Hendrik acts like no one gets this and he is revealing some long lost secret.

[/B]

I didn’t acts like no one gets or lost secret, in fact read my post, view my YouTube. I called it basic red boat era wck momentum DNA, which every Wck off spring shared.

Btw, from your description of all your previous posts, the evidence is you see punches, but not momentum. Thus, you don’t know what is capture center guarding center momentum of wck as Jerry execute is with excellent . And that is not punching to the center as your post shown. A totally different story. There is no evidence in your post to show you know what Jerry is is doing.

[QUOTE=tc101;1238452]There are general rules that do apply to any stand up fighting for example looking away or closing your eyes is a mistake no matter your style since it will get you hit, same with dropping hands, having an open mouth will get your jaw or teeth broken, being off balance will get you hit, telegraphing for obvious reasons and so forth. One of the goals of a good progressive sparring training is eliminating these mistakes and that will increase your chances in fighting since it limits the other guys opportunities. Sparring is not just about knowing what to do but also about knowing what not to do.

Using bad form like slapping instead of punching only trains you to have bad form since that is what you are practicing and you are not practicing using good form. It is with good form or good technique that you develop power accuracy and so forth. I guess slapping is fine if you want to fight like little girls but if you want to practice punching someone with accuracy and power and so forth you need to practice doing that. That is what sparring is for to practice your fighting skills. You also do not get the same response whether you hit or miss with slapping as you do punching even light punching which is important for practicing set ups.[/QUOTE]

51

Could you tell us what is your real name. Which wck lineage, and who is your sifu you learn what you claim?

Btw, Wck capture center guarding center momentum is unique and very well and precisely define for past 160 years, from red boat to Jerry by evidence.

[QUOTE=tc101;1238431]How many times have I told you wing chun is not something to define. You do not define what is boxing but you can recognize it easily and it is the same with wing chun. You are making what is called a category mistake.

.[/QUOTE]

52

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1238441]I don’t think very many WCK sifus fit the description of “a trainer that developed their sparring progressively”.

In fact, in most WCK families I’ve seen, that is typically left up to the students to figure out on their own. This means at the very least its going to take them longer, and its possible and common to avoid that development altogether.[/QUOTE]

Agree, when I move students into sparring the tactical triggers get lost easily and it all goes south quickly. Movement based on opponents movement starts before sparring. We use stepping drills in various stages in chi sao , seung ma toi ma at various angles, laap sao drills with same angles and counter angles , chasing and facing… When random striking and kicking start its easy to freeze students with new scenarios in sparring introduction. Sparring is in progressive stages that include pad and bag work. Unless you’re working with a mutual goal it all gets egofied and collapses into bad kickboxing quickly, relying on lap sao like any human ; ).

53

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238457]As from other thread, you always use general to judge ..[/QUOTE]

I do not always use the general to judge. However there are general rules that do apply to everyone no matter your style. Mistakes in fighting are mistakes in fighting so you will need to eliminate them regardless of your style.

It is the same on the ground whether you do bjj or judo or sambo or whatever you learn that there are mistakes that you do not want to make because they give your opponent opportunities.

Slapping is certainly not fight like a girl in Wck. But you don’t know.
Droping hand in taekwondo doing certain things. That too you don’t know.

Drop your hand if you are sparring someone who knows what they are doing and you will pay simple as that. I do not care if someone trains to do that it is a mistake. Even Anderson Silva cannot drop his hands. :slight_smile:

I explained why poor form technique is bad in sparring. The whole point of sparring is to practice good form, good technique so that you can engrain using those things when you fight. There is no good argument for using poor form or technique. The real justification is that they do not know better and that they were not trained progressively in sparring so that they can do it.

As for closing eyes…etc common, those are just too junior stuffs.
I was open to see if you have something specifically advance to say but still it is all the production widget of stuffs.

There is nothing advanced to say to you because you are at the junior in your words level. If you cannot even see why practicing poor form is not a bad idea and why it is poor training which is step one how are you going to understand step two? Practicing with good technique and form is the foundation in sparring, and when you see that you are not doing that then this tells you are going too hard or going at a level you are not yet prepared for. Even as you get better and better this is still the guide and your trainer will constantly be watching for this.

The other thing a good trainer will be looking for is whether you are making mistakes that give your opponent opportunities. They will also help you see opportunities for when your opponent makes mistakes. The level of mistakes will vary as you get better so that a slight mistake will cost you when you deal with someone good.

You want to do mma or boxing looks Wck way, that is fine with me. But please don’t use that as Wck. It is not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNuq9pH9D7c

No slapping.

54

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238460]Could you tell us what is your real name. Which wck lineage, and who is your sifu you learn what you claim?

Btw, Wck capture center guarding center momentum is unique and very well and precisely define for past 160 years, from red boat to Jerry by evidence.[/QUOTE]

No no not going to play the lineage game with you.

Controlling and dominating the center is basic wing chun or as I call it plan A.

55

[QUOTE=tc101;1238463]

Drop your hand if you are sparring someone who knows what they are doing and you will pay simple as that. I do not care if someone trains to do that it is a mistake. Even Anderson Silva cannot drop
[/QUOTE]

There are different kind of sparring, will the hand dropping rule apply to the taekwondo sparing? Find out for yourself.

56

It is not lineage game but tell who you are. Can you do just that?

[QUOTE=tc101;1238464]No no not going to play the lineage game with you.

Controlling and dominating the center is basic wing chun or as I call it plan A.[/QUOTE]

57

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238465]There are different kind of sparring, will the hand dropping rule apply to the taekwondo sparing? Find out for yourself.[/QUOTE]

Yes there are different kinds of sparring. I am talking about sparring that prepares you for fighting. If you want to slap spar like little girls then by all means have at it. Just do not think that this will prepare you for when someone is really trying to fight with you. It will do just the opposite since you are only reinforcing little stuff that works in slap sparring.

58

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238466]It is not lineage game but tell who you are. Can you do just that?[/QUOTE]

My name is Twen Cherba has that helped you one little bit?

59

Thanks!

And Your lineage? Your sifu?

[QUOTE=tc101;1238472]My name is Twen Cherba has that helped you one little bit?[/QUOTE]

60

Sure,

According to you Jerry is a little girl.

[QUOTE=tc101;1238471]Yes there are different kinds of sparring. I am talking about sparring that prepares you for fighting. If you want to slap spar like little girls then by all means have at it. Just do not think that this will prepare you for when someone is really trying to fight with you. It will do just the opposite since you are only reinforcing little stuff that works in slap sparring.[/QUOTE]