Cung Le: How much of his fighting style can be attributed to Kung Fu?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
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Cung Le just won his 4th victory in MMA, improving his record to 4 - 0, 4 KOs with a TKO win over Tony Fryklund at Strikeforce/EliteXC: Shamrock vs. Baroni.

The Fight: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=O8JOU4WD

Post Fight Interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcH-SD8LvEc

He dazzled the audience, pummeling Fryklund with nearly every kick imaginable, until Fryklund could no longer take the body shots, doubling over which left him open to being knocked out in the 3rd round by a flurry of strikes by Le.

His is regarded by many as the most spectacular striker in Mixed Martial Arts, a sport that rarely sees his level of skill with there even being a widely held belief among many fans that Traditional Martial Arts are inapplicable to realistic combat.

I’ve seen images of Cung gracing several covers of Kung Fu magazine. The discipline he represents in MMA is San Shou, a Kung Fu oriented combat sport the Chinese military trains where in competition he was undefeated professionally and the IKF Lightheavyweight World Champion.

What I want to know is how much of his skill parallels what is learned in traditional Kung Fu? I know there are many styles for instance one of the most well-known schools in my area is Shaolin Kung Fu taught by master Dennis Brown.

From what I have read Cung Le’s skill set consists of:

  • Training in a Vietnamese style of Kung Fu

  • A Tae Kwon Do Black Belt

  • All-American High school and Collegiate Wrestling credentials

  • Muay Thai

  • San Shou

  • Training in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at American Kickboxing Academy

I don’t know too much of about San Shou at the moment. I have only seen a handful of matches most notably Cung Le’s K-1 matches and a few of Lui Hailong’s fights.

I’ve heard that the throwing techniques in San Shou are derived from Shuai jiao, a Chinese style of wrestling.

Can anyone tell me based on what they know of Cung Le’s skills what aspects can be attributed to or parallel Chinese Martial arts?

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If you take into consideration the large repetoire of martial arts that encompasses the skills of Cung Le it would be hard to really say. However, broken down let’s take the techniques he is best at. Kicks- Side thrust kick and side thrust push off- unbelievable power in this kick. Two styles he studied have this kick, Kung Fu and Taekwondo, depending on where you study both styles have a powerful side thrust kick. Roundhouse kick- Kung Fu, Taekwondo, and Muay Thai all have this kick, but in different versions. I think Cung does his own version, and mixture of the speed and snap found in Kung Fu and Taekwondo and the power found in Muay Thai. Spinning Hook Kick- found in Kung Fu and Taekwondo, he nailed Frykland with this kick pretty good, the first time I’ve seen it used well in an MMA match, also found in Kung Fu and Taekwondo. I could sit here all day with front thrust, hook, stop, stomp, and several other kicks I have seen Cung use from Kung Fu but I think you get the point.

Grappling- Cung was a collegiate wrestler, nuff said. Also holds a blue belt in BJJ.

Hand Strikes- Boxing, but also throws the spinning backfist a lot, can be attributed to Kung Fu and Taekwondo, but more so Kung Fu on this technique.

Broken down I’d say Cung Le uses a good portion of his Kung Fu training, but again this is just an assumption as I don’ t know him or have ever trained with him and am going simply on his literature. He always gives props to San Shou and Kung Fu though, so that to me should give an indication that he bases this as his core style.

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to this day, I don’t understand why cma people find cma fighters and try to see if they can atrtribute what they do to them being pure cma, or how much cma they use in their fighting. mma guys don’t go around trying to figure out how much muay thai fighters are using, but I digress.

if I am not mistaken, the majority of his years were spent training wrestling and san shou. so I would attribute it to those two. Now, I guess the next question would be how much of his san shou was actually cma based…

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;773842] Spinning Hook Kick- found in Kung Fu and Taekwondo[/quote]

muay thai has this kick. it is called crocodile whips it’s tail. it also has a spinning back kick. the teep, roundhouse and spinning back kick are actually the three most common kicks you will see in MT.

Grappling- Cung was a collegiate wrestler, nuff said. Also holds a blue belt in BJJ.

I think he started wrestling when he was like 12, so…

Hand Strikes- Boxing, but also throws the spinning backfist a lot, can be attributed to Kung Fu and Taekwondo, but more so Kung Fu on this technique.

muay thai has this as well. That is why you really can’t break these things down. what works works, regardless of style. that’s why full contact fighting generally looks the same, though the forms and such look different.

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;773957]to this day, I don’t understand why cma people find cma fighters and try to see if they can atrtribute what they do to them being pure cma, or how much cma they use in their fighting. mma guys don’t go around trying to figure out how much muay thai fighters are using, but I digress.

The reason for this is because of the age old argument here and on every other forum as to whether or not CMA works or it doesn’t. Psychologically speaking many practioners of CMA have been told repeatedly that Kung Fu is useless, it does not work, therefore, they have to prove to themselves and everyone else that what they do does in fact work. So most find someone like Cung Le to say “Look, you see, Kung Fu does work” when in fact it is the person rather than the style that makes a martial art great. The one double standard about this is that most everything in Kung Fu can be found in other styles as well. If an MMA fighter is a great striker it is because of his Boxing, Kickboxing, or Muay Thai training, but you would be hard pressed to get anyone to admit that Kung Fu attributed to their striking ability. Since Cung Le is one of the only examples of a CMA guy in MMA, he has become the Christ like figure of the Kung Fu population. Many MMA guys have also tried repeatedly to prove Cung Le’s Kung Fu training has little to do with his level of bad assness. In retrospect, Cung Le could probably be taught by the Cave man from the Geico commercial to grunt and wave his arms and would figure out how to kick someone’s ass, some people are ass kickers, some are not.

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;774030]Since Cung Le is one of the only examples of a CMA guy in MMA, he has become the Christ like figure of the Kung Fu population.[/QUOTE]

That sounds about right. Ever since the match between Jason Delucia and Royce Gracie circulated online the myth that most TMA and especially CMA were useless has become almost canon in the MMA community.

Few MMA fans saw the early UFCs when they came out, but saw some clips online or bought the DVDs when they released and concluded that because a few TMAs got beat and most MMA fighters cross-train in only a small list of fighting styles (Muay Thai, Boxing, Kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Wrestling, Submission fighting etc.) that those were the only skills that worked.

The myth of the invincible Kung Fu master had been debunked.

Now Cung Le emerges and he is like the Messiah of Chinese Martial Arts.

He’s unbeaten professionally in San Shou and currently unbeaten in MMA, all fights won by knockout (i.e. an “Invincible Kung Fu Master”).

His fighting style is reminicient of the flashy choreographed Martial Arts action movies that made martial arts famous and have been written off by most MMA fans as a fictional representation of combat.

Technically he doesn’t do anything in MMA that I have never seen before (well I don’t recall anyone doing a Spinning Crescent Kick), but he does the techniques so often and so effectively it is quite a sight to behold.

If there really is a new age of MMA fighters on the horizon with skills similar to Cung Le that is something for every fan of Martial Arts to be excited about.

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[QUOTE=MysticNinjaJay;774101]That sounds about right. Ever since the match between Jason Delucia and Royce Gracie circulated online the myth that most TMA and especially CMA were useless has become almost canon in the MMA community.

Few MMA fans saw the early UFCs when they came out, but saw some clips online or bought the DVDs when they released and concluded that because a few TMAs got beat and most MMA fighters cross-train in only a small list of fighting styles (Muay Thai, Boxing, Kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Wrestling, Submission fighting etc.) that those were the only skills that worked.

The myth of the invincible Kung Fu master had been debunked.

Now Cung Le emerges and he is like the Messiah of Chinese Martial Arts.

He’s unbeaten professionally in San Shou and currently unbeaten in MMA, all fights won by knockout (i.e. an “Invincible Kung Fu Master”).

His fighting style is reminicient of the flashy choreographed Martial Arts action movies that made martial arts famous and have been written off by most MMA fans as a fictional representation of combat.

Technically he doesn’t do anything in MMA that I have never seen before (well I don’t recall anyone doing a Spinning Crescent Kick), but he does the techniques so often and so effectively it is quite a sight to behold.

If there really is a new age of MMA fighters on the horizon with skills similar to Cung Le that is something for every fan of Martial Arts to be excited about.[/QUOTE]

He does flashy stuff because he trains them, anyone doing it would do them too, but most tend to focus on the high % stuff.
We have seen spinning back kicks in MMA, even jumping ones, and jumping knees to counter the takedown and all that.

And, since you mentioned Delucia, I recall a few TCMA that would be called “masters”" by pretty much anyone, saying he had NO BUSINSS “representing” kung fu ( even though he wasn;t).

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;774120]
And, since you mentioned Delucia, I recall a few TCMA that would be called “masters”" by pretty much anyone, saying he had NO BUSINSS “representing” kung fu ( even though he wasn;t).[/QUOTE]

I would like to know Jason’s credentials.

He stated that he was a master of 5 animals Kung Fu.

Most of his fights have been in Pancrase which I could hardly call MMA. It’s not a good place to display Kung Fu, that’s for sure.

A couple Karate and Tae Kwon Do guys got crushed in the old UFCs as well. Ironically one of Royce’s toughest challenges was against Keith Hackney a Black Belt in White Tiger Kempo Karate, who made a good account of himself in the UFC.

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no need to single out delucia - cma as a whole has never really fared well in mma. WC guys got schooled in early mma as well. ACTUALLY, delucia is the model people should look to - he went in with cma, got beat and started crosstraining bjj. He now has a winning record - 33-20-1. how many other cma guys do you know with 54 fights, not to mention that he has won most of them…

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[QUOTE=MysticNinjaJay;774129]I would like to know Jason’s credentials.

He stated that he was a master of 5 animals Kung Fu.

Most of his fights have been in Pancrase which I could hardly call MMA. It’s not a good place to display Kung Fu, that’s for sure.

A couple Karate and Tae Kwon Do guys got crushed in the old UFCs as well. Ironically one of Royce’s toughest challenges was against Keith Hackney a Black Belt in White Tiger Kempo Karate, who made a good account of himself in the UFC.[/QUOTE]

Jason did the best he could, just don’t think that most “real” kung fu guys viewed him as an example of “real kung fu”.

Personally, he stepped out and took the challenge, which is alot more than can be said by 99% of the CMA population.

Then agian, I have seen the “real kung fu”, so I don’t think the people that know it would be welcome in the ring, so.

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;774137]no need to single out delucia - cma as a whole has never really fared well in mma. WC guys got schooled in early mma as well. ACTUALLY, delucia is the model people should look to - he went in with cma, got beat and started crosstraining bjj. He now has a winning record - 33-20-1. how many other cma guys do you know with 54 fights, not to mention that he has won most of them…[/QUOTE]

Here, here.

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I love how things come full circle. A few months when I brought up Delucia I was flamed by a few on this board about how he wasn’t the REAL KUNG FU!?!?! The truly delusional will continue to live in their tiny box while the rest of us see beyond it. Good to be on the latter on that one. I suppose whoever fights and does well but doesn’t look like Jet Li or :eek:Paulie Zink is not doing the real Kung Fu.

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I have only seen Delucia’s loss to Gracie at UFC 2, the challenge match in the dojo and a few clippings from Pancrase fights.

He really hasn’t been in the spotlight long enough to display his talent.

Actually he fought in a preliminary match in UFC 2 that did not air on the PPV. I have UFC 2 on DVD and it showed footage of him facing another Kung Fu fighter. They both did spinning heel kicks (which missed) and there was a shot of Delucia choking him out.

It was not the full fight so I don’t know what else happened. Anyway it is great that Cung Le is in MMA. I think he will open the eyes of alot of close-minded MMA fans and provide great entertainment for people looking for a good striker to follow.

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Then agian, I have seen the “real kung fu”, so I don’t think the people that know it would be welcome in the ring, so.

And this would be?

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[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;774357]And this would be?[/QUOTE]

CHI BLASTS DUDE !!
People set on fire from a distance !!
Dogs and cats living together !!

Total anarchy !!!
:smiley:

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;773957]to this day, I don’t understand why cma people find cma fighters and try to see if they can atrtribute what they do to them being pure cma, or how much cma they use in their fighting. [/QUOTE]

Because boneheads like you always say, well, he studied wrestling for 4 years so it wasn’t his kung fu that earned him the win.

And everyone always forgets Onassis Peraguno using Hung Gar in his UFC 7 win.

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[QUOTE=MasterKiller;774372]

And everyone always forgets Onassis Peraguno using Hung Gar in his UFC 7 win.[/QUOTE]

they didn’t forget, they just don’t know how to spell “Onassis Peraguno” :smiley:

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[QUOTE=MasterKiller;774372]Because boneheads like you always say, well, he studied wrestling for 4 years so it wasn’t his kung fu that earned him the win.

And everyone always forgets Onassis Peraguno using Hung Gar in his UFC 7 win.[/QUOTE]

only because you CMA freaks swear he is a pure cma when he is not. 10 years + of wrestling, san shou, muay thai, black belt in tkd and kung fu training does NOT equal pure kung fu. If you let go of the pure cma dreamworld and see that, then there would be no issue at all.

LOL, I knew you or someone would bring him up. He has trained FMA all his life, but I digress…remember in his post here he said himself that he did use hung gar and that fma is forever ingrained in him also. still not pure cma. He is a cma though - that’s not what I debate about.

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[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;774357]And this would be?[/QUOTE]

I saw a WEC fight with Alix Karolexis. Don’t remember who he was fighting, but he ended up loosing a point for stoming him in the stomache when his opponant was on the ground. Alex tried to throw an axe kick but failed due to fatigue. “Real kung fu” would not have called it a failed ax kick. It would have been a very deliberate stomp, and probably not to the belly, to hell with the lost point.:eek:

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This silly topic pops up a couple times a year.

All this is just silly-talk.

Punches, kicks, knees, elbows have very little to do with style, race, nationality, number of years in X, Y, Z. You don’t borrow speed from one style and power from another each time you kick someone. What ridiculousness.

Its about training hard with a good group/teacher. The rest is internet bunk.

Post a clip of someone who fights exactly like another person. Even if you found one, those people wouldn’t be from the same school or even part of the world most likely.

If Cung Le’s skill has to do with “kung fu” then where are the other kung fu fighters from the same teacher and school? I bet you will find other MMA fighters from the same teachers and schools.

Not very interesting.

:confused: