cross training style

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

cross training?

Hey guys I’m a bit confused.In my post I distinctly used the terms mix and add as I have seen so many MA do and mainly because what they had learned wasn’t enough to fill a cup.I simply was giving advice to someone NOT!!! to do that because before you know it there is a new style simply because practitioners need to fill gaps in their training.If you view my profile you’ll see that I hve a number of styles under my belt.Learn all you can the experience is good, but at least learn something to the fullest of its depth.

Sifu Mike Whetstone(chatsing) :wink:

22

crossing the line that seperates styles

Gentlemen, Here’s a another way of looking at the original post. Why not try training with other styles to see how your training holds up in combat.
often thoughout my time teaching I have been overtly and covertly challenged by followers of other styles.I had no idea what the person would do nor did I care. I was going to do what I do and that has always been my approach.
Training/fighting against these other styles has taught me that is no 100% move that always works. we think that if I just learn how to do this or that we will be the complete this or that but, when we are outside the kwoon with no real belief in what we do will another style help ?
Training against another style is an excellent form of cross training and when you are done ask your self whether you need to learn more about your style or just learn another style or learn a little more about yourself.
I am for crosstraining if we accept this definition (or lack of definition; I often suffer from a brain to keyboard malfunction) but make sure you have mastered yourself also. Remember the the strong overcome the weak and the smart overcome the strong.

  Thanx, Sifu Othal Thomas

[This message was edited by seung ga faat on 02-15-01 at 06:54 AM.]

[This message was edited by seung ga faat on 02-15-01 at 06:57 AM.]

23

To Whambo

Ya know what - you still don’t know ****. That’s my problem with you.“With mantis you are carrying around a butter knife” - in regards to my 1 sharp knife instead of 10 dull - are you trying to say that mantis is ineffective? Whatever -that’s the pinnacle of stupidity on your part.The praying mantis IS at the very top of all the shaolin systems - only taught to the most adept students.I’ve had ground fighting / grappling experience, as well as the mantis, and I’m not trying to sythisize anything - it happens naturally.And your an ingnorant ass naturally.Call me up here in Tonawanda in 10 years, and we’ll see how your system is coming along.By the way Where’s Ancaster? Is that like Lancaster?- thats about 20 minutes from me.

24

If you want to prove your system, please enter a MMA fighting competition, and see how it goes. If I felt any of the Shaolin systems were more effective than the more modern arts than I would be impressed with Praying Mantis being one of the more advanced systems.

Just browsing over websites I saw so many flaws in the system, particularily the stances such as the horse stance and the god awful mantis stance..but whatever. And to answer your question Ancaster is just outside Hamilton Ontario.

25

To Whambo

My whole point is that: I should realize that you are just barely off of mommy’s tit, and don’t have alot going for you other than watching videos of MMA - whatever the hell that is?? Is that like UFC ???, and putting down other martial arts - like mantis.I would offer a formal challange to you to fight, but 1.I don’t want to be sued for turning your face into hamburger, and breaking your arms like twigs, and then, subsequently being thrown in jail.(BEEN THERE ,DONE THAT) I have a decent career going, and 3 childred to take care of.Your NOT a challenge to me - I wouldn’t bully a looser barely out of high school.I’ve said my piece about you, and I acknowledge your open stupidity to martial arts in general,specifically praying mantis.My real problem is not with cross training, I realize that it is your ignorance.

26

I have entered MMA fights and my mantis has done well. So it can be effective is the ring or cage. Each style is only as effective as the person using it. If a person using BJJ did not train enough he can lose to a brawler, same with any style. It all comes down to the person using it.

27

no point asking, all your training is a waste of time and space

cross train or not? you all suck.
all I can say is all styles suck. Northern is best.
northern kungfu is more superior then the south
no southern kf is good enough to defeat northern styles.all southerners are p**fs.small d!ckless and no power.only banging arms and heads.you morons will get arthritis and braindamage.hope you do morons.your art is b*llsh!
if you think you are good bring it on.you name the time and place and i’ll kick your @ss

5star praying mantis

28

Well, that puts us all in our place. I think that this has gone far enough. Thanks for the serious input. I think 5* has thrown a few too many shrimps on his barbie either that or he’s had to many “sheila’s” knock him back. That’s the only explanation I can think of for his bitterness. The great galah (?)

Struth

29

Quite the intelligent post there 5 star

30

Pro Boxers don’t train in mantis because the majority of its tecniques can’t be used within the confines of a boxing ring. This should be rather obvious.

31

Robert please shut up, with your weak internet warrior “I would challenges” If I were to fight you, it’d be in a ring, where you wouldn’t get sued.

Your knowledge is obviously limited to Mantis, so I can basically laugh at your claims of my lack of martial arts knowledge, for no real point I’ve made has been addressed due to lack of understanding on your part.

As for what MMA is (once again having to explain this shows your lack of knowledge) It’s the most common name along with NHB for sanctioned martial arts fights. Mantis techniques are allowed in these fights are allowed obviously, yet no Mantis fighters are in them… why is that? Oh I bet you would but you don’t wanna hurt people right?

Please get off your fantasy trip of snapping my arms like twigs, I know submissions you don’t. I know how to fight, you don’t. Now go back to feeding your kids old man, maybe they’ll believe your bullshit about how tough you are.

32

Whambo,
As I stated before I am an Eight Step Praying Mantis student and I do compete in MMA/NHB. Nor Am I the only one that had ever competed, Joel Sutton competed in the UFC (6&7)and he took Praying Mantis. I compete in smaller shows in the midwest as of right now. Mantis does have throws, takedowns and submissions. I am not posting this to **** you off, just informing you. I have not desire to get in between you and Robert. We have chokes, joint locks, arm bars, ankle locks and knee bars. Alot of lock similiar to BJJ. The way we get them is just different, not better or worse, just different.

33

Whambo,
When you look and those stances they are not used just be standing there. Mantis stance is used as such, someone punches, the hand repesent a grabbing tech. the stance is used to pull soemone forward. The are throws from horse stand, you don’t stand in horse stance and start punching someone from there. We pratice punchs form horse stance because it help build leg strength. By all means train with everyone from every style. Every system has a weakness. In BJJ it was striking, western boxing and kickboxing it was stopping the takedown, in wrestling it was submissions from the guard. MMA has helped prove that. No fighter is ever complete, human nature makes us weak in different aspects. Carlos Newton and Renzo Gracie are both great fighter (would kick my a$$) but they both have lost and both have weakness. It is part the style that make a fighter and part the man. So training with alot of people does not make you a great fighter. Also because you have alot of fighting knowledge does not mean you will be a great fighter. I can’t hurt though. When I am in Vegas in two weeks I will train with John Lewis (with my sifu permission) because it will help my fighting along, but also because it will help my mantis along also. If God gave you a weak chin, no matter of training can help that.

34

Whambo

Ok, fighting doesn’t take place in a cage, octagon or cage, I think it takes place on the street, so here I will offer you a challenge - You e-mail me if you want, just click on my profile, and e-mail me. Simple ,right? I will in turn send you back an e-mail with my home address, and phone number you’ll let me know if you want to do this or not.Here’s the plan: You drive one hour down from Hamilton Ont. any day you want from march 1st - march 31st , - surprise me! all you have to do is tap me on the shoulder, and say “It’s Whammo” ,and I will in turn hand you a $50 bill for your gas money and lunch, from there, we will take three steps backwards, and then YOU can say go.The only way to win is a ko, or submission. I’m not going to say anything to anyone, nor will I continue on this post about this issue.

35

yes tai chi and shuai chiao work very well with mantis.

Whambo doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Wang Long learned from 12 dudes at the same time. He was a smart prodigy and probably a cute kid. He learned all these styles and then in his adulthood, when he fully understood them, made praying mantis kung fu and developed it.

This is different than taking two years of this and then two years of that. If you grow up with a live in TKD master, JJ master, Systema master, capoira mestre, Karate Sensei, then by all means make up your own style and you have my full respect.

If you think your a bad ass for going to lots of different places to learn many versions of level one basic fighing (see the Tao of JKD for further explanation) Then cudos to you. If you want something more in depth than stay put with a main style. I guess I’m lucky because I learned punching, kicking, throwing, groundfighting and joint locks under one roof in the context of one system. And then standing grappling (tai chi) in the context of tai chi. I can mix 8 step and tai chi techniques together because they share princibles and untimatley lead to the same place. Learning both is like burning a candle at both ends. I’m not trying to believe I’m a badass for mixing striking and grappling…oooohhh! No I’m learning internal and external arts and I’m on such a road that Tai chi will become external and Mantis become internal as they meet at the higher level. I don’t claim to be a bad ass and I sure as hell would keep my mouth shut if I only knew basic fighing.

BTW I’ve taken apart TKD/JJ guys with more training than I’ve had. All that “useless” intricate stuff has it’s merits. All that “Useless stance work” allows my to throw people even when they have one leg and are charging in for a takedown.

36

nhbfighter, I think that’s cool that you compete. Was that Jiu Jitsu you took Brazillian or Japanese, and if it is Brazillian why did you stop? Maybe I misread and you’re still doing it? I can’t really remember Joel Sutton.. that should tell me he didn’t do very well then. Personally I think you’d be better off in NHB with boxing and BJJ or Submission Wrestling, but to each their own I guess. One thing I think is important is you have 6 years in other styles, so are you really what could be considered a Mantis fighter? It says you have 8 months Mantis… I’d consider you a wrestler personally.

On your points… well ok, to me the Mantis and Kung Fu styles were made in mind of a certain style they’d be up against. I was reading on Hapkido which had the same problem, many of the grabs were with the concept the thrower was using a certain type of punch. In that case a straight arm punch. Problem is boxers don’t throw like that, and if you go for the grab they’ll clock you with the other. Another problem is it’s incredibly hard to train for something like that. Christ people at my school the popular fighting style was to go all out like hockey fighting using both hands, how to prepare for that? I’ll tell you how, you change your level and take em down. That’s what BJJ teach’s. Another obvious problem is if someone is sticking their legs in a horse stance, i’m gonna thai kick em. It’s so vulnerable there.

I understand that BJJ has weakness’s, and personally i’m glad it does. I’m glad it is a street effective grappling style and that’s basically it, because why try and do too much? I remember someone asked I believe Bolo or Roy Harris about BJJ knife defences, and he described them and basically said that they can work, but honestly if you’re looking for knife defences go to a Eskrima or another knife arts system. And it’s true, that’s their specialty, they would do it better. Why incorporate fancy stand up strikes, when they wouldn’t go beyond that of the boxing arts? If you want to strike, you should take boxing or another striking art.

Robert, you knew I wouldn’t accept that, so why even humour the challenge? I’m not travelling to a different country, to meet someone on their terms. These “street fights” you’re talking about have no rules. So if you really want to take the risk of me ripping out your eyeballs when you have kids to support then you’re even stupider that I had though. Oh and i’m especially sure the police would love to hear about how I travelled all this way to fight you if it went to that.

I would happily fight you in a ring, I’m sure you outweigh me, and probably have more experience than me, so why not? Hell we could even make it pure grappling, and just put money on it, I don’t care.

And lastly 8step…I agree if you’re just taking 2 years of this and that, then you probably are making a mistake. I think you should chose a base style, and I’ve chosen BJJ. The crosstraining styles I choose are to compliment it, it’s that simple. I don’t understand why you’re saying oh I learned kicking grappling blah blah blah all in one system so that’s ok. Well what if half was in mantis and half was in something else. You trained in both… would you fight any different? No only you might not be able to call in Mantis anymore.. It’s not my fault BJJ doesn’t have striking or doesn’t emphasize leg locks to my liking, so i’m going to get them from another style, take out of them what I like and forget the rest and move on… Making myself the best I can be is my objective, and every single pro fighter who’s name is worth mentioning agrees crosstraining is the way to achieve that. So think about it.

“BTW I’ve taken apart TKD/JJ guys with more training than I’ve had.”

Hah gimme a break, that’s so open ended it doesn’t prove anything. There’s a guy at my club who’s been training for like 8 or 9 months who I could probably tap out with one of training, and would absolutely killed in a street fight. Some people just suck, or don’t try hard enough…his is a combination of the 2. Maybe you’re good, and they’re average? Either way I don’t care to defend TKD or Japanese JuJitsu, you couldn’t pay me to train in them.

37

9 months in the sifu program is like years of another style. It’s around 5 hours a day and hellish.

Anyway the thai kick to a horse stance is a good idea except that your in a horse stance when your close to them. BTW we have a thai kick, In our system it’s traditionally called a “mantis kick” know why??? Because we like it.

Better off doing BJJ and Thai? Tell me is that because those are the only styles that you have seen used effectively?

I’m sick of explaining my art. I know it works damn well and I’ve seen little guys that do it fight damn well. I know what it’s done for me and I’m way better off than people of far more years and experience. When do you learn Iron Body and chi kung in BJJ/Thai? Go ahead and argue that chi kung isn’t work doing for fighting, but then why did the ancient pancration fighters do it? BJJ/Thai is good no question, but don’t think for a minute that 8 Step is less of an art, because it’s a better and far more complete art than those two put together. Styles aside, Its still the person and not the style getting hit and fighting.

Thats why I’m getting my ass in shape to do some fighting

38

The person I studied here was BJJ and he was only here for two months when he left. He was not bad, but I tapped all his student the first night there. Joel Sutton was an alt. in both UFC’s and won both his matchs. I think they show a short clip of it on one of the tapes. He also was in World Vale Tudo and Pancrase, not sure which one’s though.

I did wrestle for six years and it is still an many componet of when I fight. But when I started Mantis I had NO stand-up skills. Because of that a lost a few matches. If people know you are going to shoot, it is very easy to defend. and BJJ in MMA/NHB and BJJ as a sport are night and day. To work for submissions when on you back in MMA/NHB is tough. You have to be prepared to take some punishment. I would have to say as a fighter I am 150% better now that I have started mantis. Ask 8 Step Sifu, he was the first person I sparred with when I started. To be honest I got killed on my feet. Now I have learned to puch and kick. Before I could punch like anyone else, but I have learned how to throw a punch. My kicks are so much better now. Learning how to pivot my foot and such have made them much more powerful and much quicker. If I want to take a fight to the ground I can set it up now, not just shoot. Our Low Manits Kick is the same as a thai leg kick. Through training I now throw one HEll! of a leg kick. Prob. my best strike. As for punching, boxing and mantis teach very similiar punches. There are only so many punchs and kick out there. Jab, cross, hook, uppercut are the four basic, anything else is mainly a differnet type of these. If I was to fight a pure boxer I would just leg kick him till he came close, as soon as he over extends (most cross punches do) then shoot or clinch. They do throw good punches on the inside, but knees and elbows are much more powerful. We have knees and elows just like thai fighting. The main differnece between mantis and other styles, even kung fu styles, is footwork and how you follow punches up. I train here with a guy the used to train with John Cronk. He was the Colorado State Thai Champ. His tech. is very similiar to mine.

We do pratice alot of our throws and grabbing tech. when a person does throw a certain punch. But hitting the heavy bag is not that differnt. People don’t stand still to get hit (how I wish they did). That is why was have free sparring. Our sparring we wear a mouth piece, cup and NHB glove and go to town. The only way you improve is by trying new things. We don’t try to KO each other, but hit hard enough so you know when you mess up. Our sparring is stand-up and ground work. Sometimes one or another, sometime both. You have to realize stances are not held in that postion. BJJ has a horse stance, they just don’t tell you that, so does wrestling. Horse stand is the first step to taking a shot. Bending at the knees, not the waist, to change levels. You are just facing side ways, not forward. Pushing off the rear leg for power, either to shoot or punch.
I believe what 8 Step Sifu was trying to say was that we train in mantis because it is a complete style. Not the I know all of it. I may never. I know the BJJ people he is talking about, some of them trained to 2-3 years. And were not half bad. We beat them pretty easily. Maybe becasue we were in better shape (the matches rellly didn’t take that long) have more heart or were just better fighters. I know we really kick Matt’s ass (8StepSifu, he is still pissed about that). I have to admit I never could beat the instructor. But if we had included striking you never know. Boxing/Muay Thai/Brazillian Jui-Jitsu do have something mantis does not. I still can’t really do a collar choke for sh!t. As for thai and boxing, I have never studied them that close so I can’t say what they have that we don’t. But mantis has things that they don’t. We feel that what we learn maked us better fighters. To be honest TKD could be used in the ring, if trained the old way, not this point style stuff. 8StepSifu hit right, it is a person that makes a fighter, not a style. 8StepSifu is a skilled fighter, not a someone who wants to be.

I am not trying to convince you to take 8 Step Praying Mantis. But I believe you have closed yourself to that option. Go to a few differnt places as see what suits you best. If you like BJJ more the Muay Thai, go with it. But leave youself open to all styles till you find on you like. We have an are just trying to inform you of why we like it. I believe that alot of it has to do with you instructors. I and 8StepSifu have been blessed with a great teacher. He knows his stuff and knows how to teach it. You could take any style and fing the person with the mosr knowledge, but if they don’t know how to pass that knowledge on, you wont learn.
Wow, didn’t realize this was going to be this long. I hope it helped clear a few thing up for you. I am stating all this to be helpful, not an a$. Hey, 8StepSifu, shoot me an email.

[This message was edited by nhbfighter_57069 on 02-23-01 at 01:12 AM.]

39

To Whambo

You little *****, you’re backing out - don’t worry, no police involved - I fight you at 6am in my back yard with my bathrobe on, holding a cup of coffee.Please *****, your going to rip my eyes out? You’re the man on realisim and what works and doesn’t with your vast wealth of knowlege on fighting. I would fuc# you up, and you know it - I wouldn’t even strike you - I would out wrestle you.E-mail me *****.

40

NHB fighter, you said the BJJ instructor was there for 2 months, so wouldn’t that mean his students were training for only 2 months? :slight_smile:

I’ll look out for Joel, but i’m guessing since he hasn’t been in the UFC since he hasn’t had as much success as he’d hope. I don’t think you could ignore the success people crosstraining in boxing tho, why do you think most guys crosstrain in it? I’m just surprised that with being a fighter, you haven’t really experimented with the boxing arts. A LOT of guys saying when they switch from a kung fu art they improve a ton when making the switch to boxing.

About those BJJ guys you beat, i’m unclear, beat them at what? A submission match? That’s fishy.. I’d go to a Mantis school to watch…there ain’t one in my area tho. And you’re sure they’re BJJ not JJJ? And is there a very good website on Mantis you’d recommend?

And 8step

“Better off doing BJJ and Thai? Tell me is that because those are the only styles that you have seen used effectively?”

I’ve heard stories from Wing Chun guys saying how they outgrappled state wrestling champions, at some point you have to say to yourself am I really getting the full story to some of these claims. Every art’s practitioners will have a story on why their art is better, and how they beat such and such. You know it is true, it isn’t just the art it’s the fighter. When I trained Hapkido briefly I played aroung with the master’s nephew who was a green belt. Well just let me say that guy was well beyond the other green belts, so if he kicked the crap out of a Karate black belt I wouldn’t be surprised at all. Someone might twist that into a story on how Karate is inferior to Hapkido, and from there a story is born… So you’ve really got to go with what you’ve seen for yourself. It’s cool NHBfighter fights, but there’s one thing, I don’t think he’s a full time fighter. Someone like Tito Ortiz lives off his fights, he doesn’t have time to dick around with inferior styles, and for stand up he chose boxing. Every single pro fighter in the top 10 has chosen a boxing art instead of Mantis. I think that says a lot.

I think it’s cool that you guys like your Mantis, I’m sure if you’re doing a sifu program of 5 hours a day you’re gonna get good no doubt about it… I think you’re way off saying it’s better than BJJ/Thai tho, way off…I’ll take Bas Rutten over any Mantis fighter in the world thank you.

and haha Robert, now you’ve got me under the impression you’re insane. You’re obviously baiting me there for a reason, and i’m not going to take the risk of getting shot on your property. Even if I was a blackbelt BJJ master I wouldn’t fight you at your house, get realistic. For all you know I could be a 250lbs of pure muscle, then what would you do? You’d hide and call the cops just like you would do once you understood i’m actually pretty good and you’re likely to have your arm broken.