Criteria for effectiveness?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Reading the thread on top ten ma’s posed some questions for myself.What warrants the label “number one” amongst the slew om ma’s available to the general public?Lets narrow down severely the many facets of martial arts and focus on fighting.(I think thats why some of us joined ma’s was to learn how to fight, not all but some).Performance drives and motivates us as consumers to pursue many things, i.e.Cars,Electronics,women etc.What I want to know is why so many people fail to judge ma’s as they would anything else they invest their time and money into.There is alot of claims being made in relation to skill effectiveness and probability when it comes to ma’s.This is where my dilemma hits;How does one rate a ma without seeing it used in a fight?I can’t remember verbatum what Bas Rutten said about this but here it goes.If you can’t show me where you have or can use your technique I don’t want to see it.

                                     Fire away
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I’m scared to think noone wonders the same things I do.

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Hmm…

I think when people look for MA they dont look just for effectvness, they look for the whole thing d’you know what im saying.

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One can only “rate” a MA in relation to what a specific individual wants out of it.

That hardcore Gracie BJJ style might not be suitable for that 90-year old wheelchair bound person looking to get a bit of exercise on advice from a medical doctor.

Similarly, a young fighter looking to compete professionally in NHB has no business taking modern competition style Taijiquan from a championship wushu coach. He should be in the ring.

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Interesting that you mention the persuit of women. Learning martial arts just for fighting is like dating a woman only because she is beautiful.

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Learning martial arts for character development is like learning ballet because you think it’ll make you look tough.

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My criteria:

I don’t care what its called or where its from, if ita labeled a striking or grappling art.

I NEED it to work in realitic situations. I need to train it at full power. I do not want it to be merely a kicking and punching art, in that I simp;y do not want to train a bunch of punches and kicks. I want a solid system with good shielding, jamming abilities and techniques that do not require a great deal of strenght to work.

After that is all met, it needs to be healthy for me. Besides not damaging myself while training it, not relying on raw power, it must serve me in my older years.

I found it, finally, after 24 years. My teacher beats my a$$, he’s 5’8 or 5’9 maybe, 135-145lbs and 60 years young.

I know its could technique, and since he looks 40, good skin and shine, I know its healthy. I found pretty good technique with S. Mantis, but I knew a few people, including my teacher, who hurt themselves with their internal work. Needed serious operations. Older practioners were graying and lossing hair, had a grey or milky complection, eyes sunken. That guy was in his 40s, did S. Mantis for many years.

The collapsed shileding they do works in fighting, but too much pressure on the lungs and hearts, there’s another way to get the same effect, looks the same too, but is accomplished differently, not putting pressure on the organs.

PS I do not look to my teacher for lessons in spiritual growth. Of coarse I respect him, and with his knowledge and experince I’d be a fool not to take to heart any advice he would offer, but spiritual matters are personal, one should always be developing them, with or without a teacher. Listen to ones heart, be natural, and learn from yourself.

Technique first and foremost.

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Wanting to look tough is like wearing a gorilla suit to work ;).

EF - I actually agree very strongly with this statement: “I do not look to my teacher for lessons in spiritual growth. Of coarse I respect him, and with his knowledge and experince I’d be a fool not to take to heart any advice he would offer, but spiritual matters are personal, one should always be developing them, with or without a teacher. Listen to ones heart, be natural, and learn from yourself.”

It is self determination and cultivation that leads to whatever you seek.

My sensei, generally speaking, doesn’t say anything.

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Yeah, and people choose diferent cars cos they like the way they look, or how confortable they are too. Not just the speed.

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Some people also choose cars based on what they can afford. Not that this point is too relevant to the thread :stuck_out_tongue:

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Originally posted by Merryprankster
Learning martial arts for character development is like learning ballet because you think it’ll make you look tough.

Depending on your definition of MA, shouldn’t this be:

Learning to fight for character development is like learning ballet because you think it’ll make you look tough.

Even learning to fight can help with character development - it helps develop determination and mental toughness among other things :).

A lot of people see martial arts as more than just learning to fight.

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Would ya guys stop with the analogies all ready?? :smiley:
MA is not like dating women, or buying cars, or taking ballet. :smiley:

… It’s like buying women while wearing a tutu.

Being serious, I think the criteria for a MA’s EFFECTIVENESS (as that was the question) can only be determined by seeing AND using it in action. Have you used your art to protect yourself in real fights? Or at least can you pull off your techniques while sparring full contact with complete resistence? That’s the key for me. That doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be MMA or “non-traditional”, I feel traditional arts can be tested in the same way.

So criteria for physical effectiveness is how well it does in either A. A competition like NHB
B. Full contact sparring that allows all ranges
C. Real street fights (which is hard to guage…)

It’s effectiveness in other matters is another matter entirely.
Ryu

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I also wanted to point out that individual attributes play a large part in how well “MA is effective”.
Just because Royce can choke out Severn doesn’t mean another BJJ student could.
MerryPrankster and I both know the armlock from guard, for example, but I’m guessing his is probably a bit more solid than mine. (I’m trying to get better with it :smiley: )

People are always on different levels with different things.
Hugo Duarte lost bad to Tank Abbott once. Does that mean Vale Tudo cannot defeat “Big Drunk Belly” style? Probably not.
There’s many variables in fights and competitions too.

Ryu

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I have the absolute belief that if, I land a punch square on the nose of anybody, he will find himself in Teletubbies land without knowing what happened to him!..:stuck_out_tongue:

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I think just about any style can.
Being able to test it in full contact situations changes that “if” to “when”.

But I’m starting to think the traditional and non-traditional argument is dumb. Both can do this if their training is real.

Ryu

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that last post was great Ryu :slight_smile:

david

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But even full contact can only simulate a part of an actual fight.

If you aren’t wearing pads you’re going to have to be extra careful not to hit your partner somewhere devestating. So the attributes that you may be training are mostly getting used to being hit and getting used to hitting an actual human body.

With padding you could be practicing your power in a dynamic situation, but the pads are more forgiving to the hands and ribs.

Since most of us can’t really train for the main event we may have to resort to training for it in discrete pieces.

One instructor I had once had us close our eyes and then hit us in the head with a focus mitt to simulate the disorientation of being jumped. Then we had to fight off the “attacker” who hadn’t been hit. For me it took a couple of seconds to get my stuff together, on the street I would have been toast. Can’t say I enjoyed it but it was a good lesson anyway.

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Criteria for effectiveness?

Does it ****ing work?!

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And I’m not just being a smartarse.

I’m coming from a rather (maybe) unusual perspective of having started ma through no concern at all about effectiveness, defence etc. I didn’t think I needed it where I lived (I was later proved wrong). I started out of interest in zen (mainly for the control of a monster temper) and for (dare I say it) interest’s sake.

I soon realized what EF said about spiritual growth. My first sensei taught me brutal, effective and frankly, paranoid aikijutsu. Brutal? It really hurt, even after you tapped he tweaked a bit more, and it hurt even after he let go. Effective? He was big, and in case you think size never counts, very hard. Paranoid? The bloke was always in some dangerous nasty world where rapists, muggers, freaks, terrorists, and Black Jack live.:smiley:

It wasn’t going to be effective for me: I had no faith in it’s effectiveness against somebody else for someone of my skinny build (the Gracie vs BJJ thing Ryu mentioned).

I was gonna get no spiritual development other than on my own. But I kept training cos I enjoyed it, and it calmed me down.

My next (aikido) sensei was and is a very nice, very no-nonsense, very capable guy. How do I know he’d be effective? I’m sorry, but I just know. Regardless of a few stories that go around about when he’s had to use it, I’ve seen him against unrehearsed and ‘actively resisting opponents’. But basically I was training for it’s own sake.

I only realised a while later (duh!), that it was useful for me in the street, and that was after a couple of times when I narrowly avoided a pasting. You don’t know the effectiveness until you’ve tried it. Period. Trial and error.

I don’t think I live in that dangerous a world. I don’t wanna go round believing everyone’s about to kill me. But I have a healthy respect for what I can do and what I can’t do.

Many people judge aiki as ineffective cos of unrealistic ‘attacks’ in the dojo: but this is an ineffective learning tool, and doesn’t mean an ineffective art. Many people say wingchun doesn’t work cos it hasn’t been tried and tested in NHB. I know it works, in some situations.

I was once told that the difference between brown and black belts was one of attitude. I realised my technique was secondary, to some extent my art was secondary, and my skill and attitude has got through gradings and more importantly, in the street, when I’ve really needed it.

Sorry I’m rambling a bit, and I have to be somewhere else anyway, but I agree with most of the posts here…

the only real thing I have to add is: now I don’t train for effectiveness in the street, but for many other reasons…

As JWT says “I will win.” (Er, 'cept that’s ME JW!). Believe it. Whatever you do :cool: .

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Is it real.