I know. Tan Pai Shou is much more useful than just used in the striking art. The moment that you start to use Tan Pai Shou, you have just open your door and enter into the grappling world.
When your right Pai Shou is on your opponent’s right shoulder, depending on his respond, you can
move your right hand behind his neck.
drop your right forearm across his throat.
raise your right elbow as Bong Shou to block his left punch (hide your head under your right Bong Shou).
…
The Tan Pai Shou is a “door open” move. There are many possibilities after that (if you don’t restrict yourself only in the striking world).
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1216381]I know. Tan Pai Shou is much more useful than just used in the striking art. The moment that you start to use Tan Pai Shou, you have just open your door and enter into the grappling world.
When your right Pai Shou is on your opponent’s right shoulder, depending on his respond, you can
move your right hand behind his neck.
drop your right forearm across his throat.
raise your right elbow as Bong Shou to block his left punch (hide your head under your right Bong Shou).
…
The Tan Pai Shou is a “door open” move. There are many possibilities after that (if you don’t restrict yourself only in the striking world).[/QUOTE]
Tan sao is a punching concept, often mistaken as a can opener, a low five , a qi transporter, a begging hand out side the local bodega , omnipotent defense posture ( not ) by Hendrik.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1216381]
The Tan Pai Shou is a “door open” move. There are many possibilities after that (if you don’t restrict yourself only in the striking world).[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1216391]Tan sao is a punching concept, often mistaken as a can opener, a low five , a qi transporter, a begging hand out side the local bodega , omnipotent defense posture ( not ) by Hendrik.[/QUOTE]
The way that I look at Tan Shou can be a
block,
uppercut, or
arm wrap.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1216393]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing chun is not only about striking.[/QUOTE]
That’s why we should look into all usege of the Tan Pai Shou. You can use it to achieve clinching (obtain 2 contact points) if you want to.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1216397]The way that I look at Tan Shou can be a
block,
uppercut, or
arm wrap.
That’s why we should look into all usege of the Tan Pai Shou. You can use it to achieve clinching (obtain 2 contact points) if you want to.[/QUOTE]
Subjectivity allows a myriad of applications. Simple ideas can be lost in translation. Why not just invent something on your own and leave tan sao concepts and tactics to us. Wait ! You did, my bad.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1216410]Subjectivity allows a myriad of applications. Simple ideas can be lost in translation. Why not just invent something on your own and leave tan sao concepts and tactics to us.[/QUOTE]
I said, “The way that I look at …”. I didn’t say, “The way that everybody should look at …”.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1216410]Subjectivity allows a myriad of applications. Simple ideas can be lost in translation. Why not just invent something on your own and leave tan sao concepts and tactics to us. Wait ! You did, my bad.[/QUOTE]
Not saying I agree with the grappling ideas posted by YKW but it would appear Kev yours is the only lineage from the multitude of lineages (including the rest of the WSL lines) that has such a narrow view of tan sao. I completely agree that things can and do get lost in translation but that is universally true and no single lineage can claim to be immune.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1214998]The difference is that the first two clips are dealing with countering how a hook is actually done by someone with some skill and the WC clip is showing how to counter a “hay maker”.[/QUOTE]
You beat me to it. Those weren’t “hooks” in the first clip. They were too open.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1216393]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing chun is not only about striking.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Graham H;1216554]The narrower the better! You have many ideas on Tan Sau? Maybe I should come to your school. Oh wait! We already talked about that :)[/QUOTE]
No Graham, I don’t think we have discussed that. If its a genuine offer to meet as intelligent adults then I’d welcome the opportunity to meet and exchange ideas, hopefully I’d learn something ( I have a firm belief that every one I ever train with can teach me something if I’m willing to learn and the day I stop learning is the day I stop training) but it wouldn’t be at my school as that time is devoted to the students.
As far as tan sau is concerned, no I don’t have many ideas on tan sau I have a single concept, it is a shape with a defined position and inherent strengths and weaknesses, it covers a given area. It can however be used in a variety of ways dependent upon how it is combined with footwork and depending upon what the partner / opponent is doing. To suggest that it is only a punching concept is IMO limiting as it has many uses, a view which seems to be shared by the most of the Wing Chun world including WSL followers such as DP whose clip was posted earlier in the thread. I am also curious as to why you would use tan sao to teach a punching concept when you can simple teach people to punch and use punches to teach a punching concept?
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1216566]No Graham, I don’t think we have discussed that. If its a genuine offer to meet as intelligent adults then I’d welcome the opportunity to meet and exchange ideas, hopefully I’d learn something ( I have a firm belief that every one I ever train with can teach me something if I’m willing to learn and the day I stop learning is the day I stop training) but it wouldn’t be at my school as that time is devoted to the students.
As far as tan sau is concerned, no I don’t have many ideas on tan sau I have a single concept, it is a shape with a defined position and inherent strengths and weaknesses, it covers a given area. It can however be used in a variety of ways dependent upon how it is combined with footwork and depending upon what the partner / opponent is doing. To suggest that it is only a punching concept is IMO limiting as it has many uses, a view which seems to be shared by the most of the Wing Chun world including WSL followers such as DP whose clip was posted earlier in the thread. I am also curious as to why you would use tan sao to teach a punching concept when you can simple teach people to punch and use punches to teach a punching concept?[/QUOTE]
Oh lighten up FFS! You’re too serious!
As you may have noticed David Peterson is not my Teacher. His thinking is different than that of my Teacher. The why’s and what for’s are not important.
Tan Sau is just a shape. It is not an application. The elbow is low and the hand is open purely so that one can focus on the elbow during training. The reason for this focus on the elbow is due to the un-naturalness of the Ving Tsun straight punch and the fact that we have to use the elbow for defending, opening the way for the punch and also the punch itself. This is not a natural thing for humans to do so Tan Sau develops this idea. The reason why this concept has been lost and grossly misinterpreted by people such as Ip Chun is due to the problems that arose during the time Ip Man was teaching. Many people such as your Sigung were not taught properly if at all by their Master. Unfortunately Ving Tsun cannot be taught or passed on properly by people that do not have the correct thinking and/or whos knowledge has filtered through form unworthy sources.
If I were to watch you train Tan Sau in SLT and you weren’t to explain the correct ideas behind it I could invent many things and I would guess that my first thought would be that it is for blocking. It looks nothing like a punch when you are stood there slowly pushing it forward. If I were to watch you play chi sau and looked at your Tan Sau shape I would guess that it was for controlling your arm. This is a natural and common mistake.
WSL did not re-invent the whole system and nor did Philipp Bayer. The reason for all the different ideas on this fundamental concept is that people in the past have got it wrong and then the problem spreads like wildfire.
I would be happy to meet up with you but you better be ready for fighting because I won’t be touching your arms or playing any chi sau with you. In my lineage we know what works and the only way to test is to spar. Talking comes afterwards. If you can make your Ip Chun/Shawn Rawcliffe ideas work then maybe I will join your school.
Most of the people I meet in Ving tsun have come from other lineages so we are well aware of why the system is so f***ed up.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1216571]You can inbox me if you like otherwise the chest beating will undoubtedly get harder as it usually does on this forum. No need for it.[/QUOTE]
Too right Graham… wouldnt be like you to encourage chest beating!
No chest beating from me, I’ll leave that to others. I’m far too old for that nonsense.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1216570]
WSL did not re-invent the whole system and nor did Philipp Bayer. The reason for all the different ideas on this fundamental concept is that people in the past have got it wrong and then the problem spreads like wildfire.[/QUOTE]
Not accusing anyone of reinventing anything. I just struggle with the idea that everyone else got it wrong, Ip Man’s other students and WSL’s other students etc
I would be happy to meet up with you but you better be ready for fighting because I won’t be touching your arms or playing any chi sau with you. In my lineage we know what works and the only way to test is to spar.
I’d love to understand what you mean when you say sparring (as it means lots of things to lots of people), I’ve seen what Alan Orr does and I’ve seen the Leung Ting stuff, but I haven’t seen any sparring clips from the PB lineage any chance you could point me to something on the web or post something
Talking comes afterwards. If you can make your Ip Chun/Shawn Rawcliffe ideas work then maybe I will join your school.
Nah we’re very selective about who we let in
Not accusing anyone of reinventing anything. I just struggle with the idea that everyone else got it wrong, Ip Man’s other students and WSL’s other students etc
Not everyone else but the likes of Leung Ting definately have doctored it all as he did with that famous photograph
I’d love to understand what you mean when you say sparring (as it means lots of things to lots of people), I’ve seen what Alan Orr does and I’ve seen the Leung Ting stuff, but I haven’t seen any sparring clips from the PB lineage any chance you could point me to something on the web or post something
Sparring as in we both have an exchange. There are no sparring clips on the web. All the forms, drills and training methods are a precursor to sparring. A student has to be proficient in these before he can spar or there will be many problems. Why do you need a website? You can find out easy enough in real life. You cannot gauge ones conditioning from video clips.
Alan Orr is doing his own thing and it’s nothing like what I do. Those guys are training for competitions where as I am not. I don’t practice MMA and am not a member of an MMA gym.
More detail is needed to justify the proposition that VT is only about striking. I have heard VT sifus assert that Yip Man was very good at using controlling techniques with VT. Seeing that people claim VT doesnt contain techniques per se why should people limit themselves to striking? Certainly fighting is not limited to striking.
