[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1011830]Why do you think the folks on a MMA forum would disagree with me about how to train? I am using their approach to training. I’m saying to do what the good, proven fighters say to do, what the good proven fight trainers say to do.[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about?
Where did I comment on what folks in an MMA forum say?
[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1011740]When you were ranting about masters and grandmasters you technically insulted your sifu, Robert. How can you praise him and diss him at the sane time? What you don’t seem to understand is that you learned wck from someone that has never fought a professional fight. So how do you know what he teaches is functional? I am not speaking badly of your sifu. I am just pointing out the major flaw in all of your logic.[/QUOTE]
You don’t understand what I’m talking about.
First, about making your art functional. What Robert teaches isn’t functional. What Rickson teaches isn’t functional. It is YOU that make it functional by your training (sparring), the work you put in. This is true of BJJ, of boxing, and of WCK.
Second, you need to appreciate the difference between the curriculum and the subject matter. Robert’s curriculum is IMO traditionally oriented. He in many ways is a very traditional sifu and he retains those traditional elements (forms, kuit, dummy, etc.). Yet, in other ways, he is very nontraditional. My personal view, from working with good fighters, is that the traditional way is a very poor way to teach and provides very little real training. I had to take what Robert taught me (via traditional methods) and put it together in a modern, functional way.
Robert can’t teach you to make your WCK work. He can teach you the method of WCK and fundamental skills you need to implement the method. That’s it. The rest is up to you.
It’s like learning to surf. Do you need to learn to surf from a professional surfer? How can someone that never surfed at a professional level teach you to surf? Well, that’s your “logic”.
How do you know that what you are being taught are the fundamental skills? By doing it. It always come back to that.
[QUOTE=YungChun;1011831]What are you talking about?
Where did I comment on what folks in an MMA forum say?[/QUOTE]
Oh, I see, so you were saying that most people HERE agree with my views on training? Really? If so, then why is hardly anyone doing it?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1011820]Not true. Good, skilled people can disagree about many things. For example, I don’t agree with all of Dale’s views, I don’t agree with all of Alan’s views, I don’t agree with all of Thornton’s views, etc. Yet, on a fundamental level, there is a general agreement because when you share certain experiences, you tend to look at things similarly.
Most people on this forum don’t agree with me because they do not share my views about training. Most people on a MMA forum would agree with me since they do share my views about training.[/QUOTE]
Dude, people don’t like YOU because you are arrogant and obnoxious and preach the same message over and over again, like some religious convert.
Your message is that you need to test your MA with the highest caliber people you can find and adapt and make changes to make it work.
NO ONE here denies that or thinks that is wrong, though some may argue HOW MUCH of that is needed, they will not argue that it IS needed.
People just don’t like you because you are a broken record with this.
Its you Bro, not your message.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1011828]Those aren’t applications. Did you see Robert fight on the DVD? If not, then you didn’t see him apply WCK.
What Robert is doing is trying to show his curriculum, and using various “examples” to illustrate things. He is not showing application.
Application IS fighting. And, he is presenting his curriculum to a certain “group” and at a certain level. He tailors his message for that intended group.
[/quote]
Perhaps then I don’t know how to understand english because he calls them “applications”. Used the term just as clear as he did the term “concepts” several times. It’s even on the back of the DVD case…both applications and the word principles. Another word you seem to hate being associated with wing chun.
But you’re right–he’s not truly applying it. Moreso he’s illustrating how it would be applied against a person. The long and short of it is that his “illustrations” of how the move would be done against someone are more traditionally done than how Alan would apply it in an MMA context–if at all. There were movements in there that even I wouldn’t do because experience has shown me the lack of effectiveness in that particular movement.
Example…tok jeung to someone’s behind will do NOTHING for you in a fight outside of people calling you a fag for grabbing his teabag.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1011828]
I don’t know what you mean by “what t says and what seems to be reality isn’t always the same”-- how is what I say not how things are?
[/quote]
Meaning that the things you talk about like wing chun not being conceptual…are indeed conceptual per your TEACHER. So whenever you spout that particular mantra you’re going against what your sifu says (and just about every other wing chun person out there to include fighters like WSL and GL and HC and YM himself).
Not to mention that Robert seems to work his wing chun in a more traditional manner than a conventional one. So all your talk of training methods also goes against what can be surmised from Robert’s DVD. Then again, you’re your own person so you can change whatever you wish. I know I’ve done the same with my personal iteration of the system as well.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1011828]
I’ve never claimed to have anything new.
[/quote]
The point was that you’re talking about it OVER AND OVER again…like its some new epiphany that you’ve come across. When in fact its been done for centuries in this way. Ima start calling you WCJ - Wing Chun Jesus! WWWCJD?! (…and Dale can be John the Babblingtist)
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1011828]
When Rene went to visit Sum, he asked Sum what the main difference was between the old guys who were good and today’s folks. Sum told him that in teh past, they fought. Sum fought ALL the time. He was a hard-drinking, bad tempered guy who liked to fight and was constantly fighting. He got better at fighting by fighting.
Hawkins realized the same thing. When he was in HK, he didn’t want to fight on the streets since it was illegal, so he joined a karate class that sparred so he could practice.[/quote]
OK. So he was a thug to you. My current sifu’s recount of who Sum Nung was a bit different. Unless we knew him personally its hearsay and irrelevant. As a side note, everyone at that time got better at fighting by fighting. Wing chun schools fought CLF schools and all sorts of other schools all the time.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1011828]
Today, instead of getting into street fights – which is not only very dangerous but provides only very uneven experience – we can go train with good, proven fighters, do lots of sparring with really good people, people Hawkins and Sum and our ancestors didn’t have access to. What happened when the HK WCK guys went to Thailand to fight the Thais? They got whipped. Because they didn’t train like the Thai’s, they didn’t fight with good people like the Thai’s, etc.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this part. Coupled with the fact that sparring with anyone that’s better than you will provide good feedback. They don’t have to be elite fighters…just better than YOU.
BTW…my understanding of the WC vs MT matches went that both sides won at times. But then unless we were there or have documentation that’s all hearsay as well and not a viable source of information. It would be interesting to see something in terms of a report or written documenting of the fights.
[QUOTE=Vankuen;1011880]Example…tok jeung to someone’s behind[/QUOTE]
Okay I admit it.. I have no idea what this is..
Can you elaborate?
[QUOTE=YungChun;1011881]Okay I admit it.. I have no idea what this is..
Can you elaborate?[/QUOTE]
NOPE. You gotta get the video!!! 
I’m being a little joking about that movement, it was intended to be more of a liu yam jeung (but attacking the groin from a behind position) if my understanding is correct.
I don’t want to talk about too much specifics because well…it’s Roberts DVD and to be fair the information should be given by him if its going to be given for free.
[QUOTE=Vankuen;1011880]
BTW…my understanding of the WC vs MT matches went that both sides won at times. But then unless we were there or have documentation that’s all hearsay as well and not a viable source of information. It would be interesting to see something in terms of a report or written documenting of the fights.[/QUOTE]
I used to have an old paperback book titled “Muay Thai”. There was an entire section devoted to the pictures of the MT guys destroying the WC guys. Wish I would have kept it.
I love old books! Yea you should have kept it. At the same time that’s an account of just one of the matches. I had heard that there were several, and that while the MT guys won more often than not, it was attributed to better conditioning (you’d think EVERYONE would realize that fighting involves being in shape to fight–go figure).
I enjoy training in both styles and think they blend well. Lots of similarities…but lots of differences too.
I remember when those fights occurred. It was in the 70’s. It was a total sham. The Thais pitted seasoned pros against neophyte students or worse.
Total bullsh1t.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1011909]I remember when those fights occurred. It was in the 70’s. It was a total sham. The Thais pitted seasoned pros against neophyte students or worse.
Total bullsh1t.[/QUOTE]
Why? because they thais sent their “best” and the WC people didn’t?
Well, why didn’t they?
well, the “story” goes, that the Thais organized the entire event for the reasons of popularizing Muay Thai, so they picked the contestants. They took their top fighters and pitted them against people who had zero experience.
Any time you have VT going to Thailand to fight the VT folks should get serious props…
In most cases none of the VT folks are going to be seasoned full contact fighters.. I am sure I don’t need to explain that..
But they are going a long way to fight folks in their environment, with their rules and their game.
Most of those folks wanted to test themselves and they did.
If I remember correctly, there were two sets of matches. The WC people put together a team of WC fighters to go to Thailand. They fought with gloves and the WC people claimed that they lost because of this. There was another team of fighters who went over to fight with no gloves. They also lost. Because of the this, there became a popular saying in Thailand which was something along the lines of, “Kung fu cannot fight without gloves either.”
Lol man that’s harsh. Well, at least Chinese have a better economy than Thailand!
There’s no doubt about the Thai/wing chun fights. The wing chun guys were dominated. The debate is a moot point. Perhaps those wing chun guys were deadly street fighters but in the ring they lacked any intimidating factors and were facing opponents with sure skill. It doesn’t matter how the Chinese martial artists try to spin it.
I doubt they were the only VT to ever go to Thailand..
We had some guys from the old Moy Yat school go (with Mickey Chan) as well at least once years ago.. I was not there but as I recall 2 guys were disqualified…
If anyone has more info on this I’d be interested in hearing about it.
I am sure other VT has went there too and I am sure they won’t be the last.
I remember the article in Kuen Way, a HK MA mag. One of the pictures showed the Kung-Fu “fighter” dropping both hands to attempt to block a low roundhouse kick to the leg. That’s not good in any system, certainly not advocated in WCK.
Anyone with a smatterring of training knows this. It appeared as if they just took some kids off the street and fed them to the wolves. It was no spin, it was completely orchestrated by the Thais.
(of course, that might be the spin…oh well…)
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1011944]
Anyone with a smatterring of training knows this.
[/QUOTE]
You’d think so, and yet…:o
Hey, here’s an idea:
Since both of you can do it better, why don’t you jump into some Muay Thai matches and see how well you can keep your hands up? You can post the clips of that here.
How about it? You guys are the WC “experts.” How about showing some of that expertise?