Cloning. Some thoughs...

The other thread sparked this post. Something has been bothering me, and I’d like to at least post it. Not really to “condem” anyone or “prove” which side is right, etc. But I’m kind of giving you a thought of mine that I’d like to express. As Kant would say I want to universalize my maxim.
First off let me say that I am no expert in cloning, and I don’t claim to know much about the science. That being said, I only deal with the issues of philosophy in that science.

I do not object to stem cell research, or even cloning embryos to get those stem cells. (as I said, I do not know much about it) However, one thing that has really bothered me, and I do object to is the thought of genetically bringing up live, thinking, and feeling, human beings for the purpose of taking their lives for medical purposes. Before I begin, I would like to make this point. Medical research is important, but it seems to me that if humans can be grown, the cloned organs needed can be grown by themselves. This is good.

A human being, whether cloned, born, made by science, religion, dirt, whatever is a sentient being. The human breathes, thinks, struggles with his own self-doubts, tries to understand the world around him and his own emotional and conscious capabilities. He feels compassion, joy, anger, jealousy, saddness, and fear. When he is injured he feels pain. When his life is to be taken away he feels fear. Some humans deal with death better than others. Some or terribly afraid of dying. Some are terribly afraid of helplessness, or pain.
If we create a human being. A clone of ourselves. And this clone grows up in our world, developing the conscious mind, the moral mind, the thinking mind, and the emotional mind, he becomes a human being. It does not matter where the human comes from. It is a human.
I don’t care whether we come from God, the earth, molecular clouds, or a test tube. We are human beings. We are living, breathing, thinking, feeling individuals. We laugh, cry, feel depression, feel joy. We are sentient beings.

If a person (not a body) is grown, and is allowed to develop into what a true person is only to be killed years later, is in my mind a terrible offense to nature and ourselves. What constitutes a person is not what he is born from, but the living, thinking, feeling, mind. The consciousness from which our species has developed.

Whether this consciousness, emotion, and morality is from “God”, “nature”, “electronic impules in our brains”, “society”, etc is irrelevant. I don’t care where it comes from.
The important and VERY REAL issue is that it is a part of us. And always will be.

I have no problem with creating host bodies, for example (with no brains, no thinking, no living, no breathing) etc. in order to host organs that we can use to better our lives. But that is the point. Do not create someone else’s LIFE only to terminate it. When life is created (no matter what its from) When true life, and true emotion, and true self-consciousness is created…no one, and I repeat NO ONE (even that creator) has the right to take it away. It is far too precious.

As I have been bombarded by those damn videos of the planes slamming into the WTC towers…I cannot help but think of all the living, breathing, feeling, dreaming, individuals inside who were killed without even a second thought. :frowning:

This is not a religious issue…this is a human one.

We are human beings. We are sentient beings. We have the GIFT of compassion, consciousness, and morality inside us. It is up to us to know how to use it right.

That is my post. :frowning:

I am in no way saying that cloning is wrong.
I think the technology can save lives. And I think we should do it. But we must be responsible, and compassionate for life always. This is the only way we can survive.

To clone embryos, stem cells, and possibly even a innanimate “body” to host organs is okay with me.

Once that “body” begins to think, breath, feel, and reflect on himself…then we have a problem.

Thanks for listening.

Ryu

“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”

good point but…who is proposing that we raise full-grown human beings like cattle and then slaughter them for parts???we live in a pretty sick world but you’d be hard pressed to find support (on a large scale) for something as morbid and flat-out cruel as that.

BJJ is inferioru

Cloning full grown human beings for medical purpouses is just like jews being used as scientific experiments in ww2 , medical science did progress but at what cost.

“everything is everything”

if its possible to grow organs alone and keep them "alive ", healthy i suppose its okay.

“everything is everything”

no, no I haven’t heard anyone proposing that.
Yet it was mentioned on another thread.

This is just the “worst case” scenario I’d like to point out. Sometimes extremes are good in showing people what “could” transpire, etc.

This is just something I thought of, and needed to get off my chest.

Ryu

“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”

“medical science did progress”

what are you smoking mon??

Yes, I agree completely with the notion of growing healthy organs. This is where the technology of cloning should strive for.

Ryu

“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”

The problem is, when does a body become a human? Is it inception, birth, or sometime after birth? I don’t know, but I can tear a whole in anyone’s argument who does claim to know. That’s why I think it’s such a sensitive issue.

“The problem is, when does a body become a human? Is it inception, birth, or sometime after birth?”

approximately 23 hours, 3 minutes and 27 seconds after birth life beigns.I challenge anyone to dispute that, it’s in the bible.

BJJ is inferior

I agree it’s sensitive. This is where the whole abortion thing comes into play…

but I doubt anyone would argue that a fully conscious, emotional, thinking being is NOT human…

Ryu

“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”

Well I have to get to my writing… and some training later on I guess. Have fun with this, and post away.

But as for the bible thing up there (I don’t remember that by the way) DON’T HIJACK MY THREAD!

Keep this a philosophical/scientific/ethical thing… once we bring in our interpretations of relgion then…

oh what the hell, post whatever you want.. :wink:

See you,
Ryu

“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”

by the way, if that was a joke, then just consider me an idiot, and continue on. :cool:

Ryu

“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”

ryu,
your not an idiot, it was a joke, sorry to hijack.just lookin’ to keep things light.

BJJ is inferior,

Medical science did advance because of experimentation, Of course I dont support this ,
By the way I have jewish blood in me so f. you,
and by the way I dispute this 23 hour garbage, are you just here to bring trouble?

“everything is everything”

made one last peak before signing off

Stop fighting!! :smiley:

Haven’t you listened to anything I said? :smiley:

Come on guys, have a good discussion here. I know its a tough issue, but be mindful of each others emotions.

Ryu

“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”

brain=being
clone-brain=tissue
clone+brain=person with rights, needs, and every bit of spirit as the rest of us.

To my knowledge, the only organ that removal of instantaneously deletes consciousness from the human being is the brain. Even the heart only kills the thought process by damaging the brain(ending blood flow).

Thank you.

Ryu

“One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage.”

ironic that we argue about taking a humans life when all we do is sit around and talk about how “easy” we could “rip someones throat”, snap someones neck, kill etc etc.. :rolleyes:

and dont get me started on the KNIFE thing… ahum ryu..

anyway, on the subject here:
I Think that cloning can and will be used for alot of great things. It is not a moral delemma at all. good post Ryu, but i dont agree with everything here.

                    ~K~

“maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!” – someone on the subject of back-flips in combat –

“Medical science did advance because of experimentation, Of course I dont support this ,
By the way I have jewish blood in me so f. you,
and by the way I dispute this 23 hour garbage, are you just here to bring trouble?”

ok, u have jewish “blood” in you.wow, wonderful.I have 100% and a wealth of knowledge about what transpired during that time.don’t get your panties in a bunch.did the weed joke hit a nerve?sorry.

BJJ is inferioryB

Kristoffer, what do you find you disagree with on this post? Just curious of your views.

I think part of Ryu’s point, and Ryu, feel free to knife me for putting words in your mouth, is that a clone, a complete clone with brain and all, is really a person, and so no one has the right to use it/abuse it any more than one has the right to abuse another infant. IMO, clone should be a term that really doesn’t apply once the cloned tissue is a living being. I suppose I feel that clone is more applicable as a verb, and utterly useless as a noun.