What does chum kiu mean to you? Not the literal translation although there seem to be many variations of that, or the sequence of techniques, but what do people deem is the purpose (s) of the form?
I thought I’d throw this out there for general discussion as I’m genuinely interested in how much variety there is across the different lineages / schools. If this has been done before then apologies to the veterans but I couldn’t see it anywhere.
For me the form is about getting safely into range and finding the safe route to the opponent’s jic seen whilst also introducing concepts that build on SNT such as, disconnection of upper and lower body for power, range of motion and ability to go “sung”, as well as introducing recovery from mistakes / sub-optimal positions.
As the opinions vary so much on SNT, the basic shapes, chi su and just about everything else I’m sure that there’ll be plenty of views, and it would be good to hear them.
To me Chum Kiu provides examples of how to use the feet, legs, waist, hands and arms as a unit. It’s a power form that shows how power is generated not by muscles but by turning. What Chum Kiu shows are foundational, in other words the techniques are more instructive than authoritative.
[QUOTE=trubblman;1155805]It’s a power form.[/QUOTE]
That’s the simplest way to look at it fme.
It’s about ‘taming the tiger’, which is another way of saying that it is designed to restrict the opponents upper and lower body, so as further techniques can be launched.
It’s specific sets of ‘methods’ and should be trained thoroughly.
I should’ve added that it depend on what WC lineage you do. Chum and mean sink and it can mean search depending on the Cantonese tone you use. Some say sinking bridge, some say searching bridge.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1156007]I should’ve added that it depend on what WC lineage you do. Chum and mean sink and it can mean search depending on the Cantonese tone you use. Some say sinking bridge, some say searching bridge.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1156007]I should’ve added that it depend on what WC lineage you do. Chum and mean sink and it can mean search depending on the Cantonese tone you use. Some say sinking bridge, some say searching bridge.[/QUOTE]
Pretty silly really wouldn’t you say? What is the character? How many variables does that throw up?? What is the form for exactly?
There is only one character for Chum, and I was always taught seeking or searching.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1156007]I should’ve added that it depend on what WC lineage you do. Chum and mean sink and it can mean search depending on the Cantonese tone you use. Some say sinking bridge, some say searching bridge.[/QUOTE]
I was trying to avoid just debating the literal meaning and was hoping to tease out some of the differences in theory. So far eveyone seems to concur about the introduction of movement and the generation of power but I’d love to hear from some of the “sinking the bridge” schools and some of those who are critical of using a bridge.
It is hard to be specific when using chinese symbals. It leads to interpretations in theory, which is nothing more than unproven possibilities. Use a more simple and explicit language like english and you can be far more precise.
Some of the explanations I have read here says no one knows what they are talking about. It is no wonder WC has so many different lineages. And spellings. A very good example of this is a few posts back. Sil Lim technology for when you stand still to fight and chum kil when you are forced to move. These are purely training methods where you take it in steps or stages. You can’t learn it all at once and you need to do it in phases. step 1 step 2 step 3 , and so on. There is nothing hidden within the forms. Nothing at all. It is all right there and it has no mysterious meanings. And you can more accurately teach it or explain it if you forget all the chinese and symbols.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1156055]It is hard to be specific when using chinese symbals. It leads to interpretations in theory, which is nothing more than unproven possibilities… you can more accurately teach it or explain it if you forget all the chinese and symbols.[/QUOTE]
An interesting perspective coming from a Chinese speaker. My old Sifu, also Chinese said the same thing. Yet we, his English speaking students, find ourselves intrigued by this ancient language that we don’t understand, or only understand poorly… and look to it hoping to find secret answers, when maybe hard training and practical experience is what we really need. But where’s the fun in that? LOL
For me I try to find out the truth in concepts or motions. I neither dogmatically accept or reject
language. Texts point to a subject- they are not themselves subjects.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1156029]Pretty silly really wouldn’t you say? What is the character? How many variables does that throw up?? What is the form for exactly?
There is only one character for Chum, and I was always taught seeking or searching.
Not silly at all my Wing Chun brother. I studied Cantonese at a University in NYC. We uses the Yale University Romanization which is in most people’s opinion the best one for people who use the Roman alphabet. Anyway, though some say there are 8 tones Yale teaches that there are 7 “musical” tones in Cantonese unlike the 4 used in Mandarin. Mandarin is a lot easier for non-Chinese to learn. For an example of the 7 tones I’ll use the Cantonese word Hai. Now in Yale there would be an accent mark either rising or falling to determine the pitch of the word. If you know music then you’ll know there is Treble and Bass Clef. So the letter H is use to show a low tone. Hai is going to be a higher pitch that Haih. But since I don’t know how to add accent marks here I’ll just use Hai. So let’s say there are 7 different musical tones to say Hai. Hai can mean shoe, the verb ‘to be’, crab, a point in space, vagina, etc. They may all sound the same to a non-native speaker but they are very different. There’s a story about Bruce Lee having an English boy over to eat and they were serving crab but the boy unknowingly said please pass the vagina. Chum is the same way. The two Chums I mentioned would be different characters just like the different Hai. In the pole form there is a Diu Mah (hanging horse), stance. Diu can also mean fornicate and Mah can mean mother. Get my point? Mah can also mean Marijuana. Some English speakers think the Tao is SLT means Do (Path/Way). But it literally mean head. To summarize, Cantonese word a word can sound the same to the untrained ear but have 7 different meanings and 7 different characters.
If you look at page 131 in the glossary of the Complete Wing Chun book you’ll see the two different characters for Chum along with their two different meanings. Try this is you want to use Romanized Cantonese words: http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictionary/
Additionally I look at the dynamics of a well done form to understand it’s meanings.
Spencer IMO puts greater faith on the character alone and what he says his sifu told him.
Different tones for chum gives you different meanings. I don’t know what character Ip Man
(Not Ip Chun and others) used himself. He did not write much. He taught by verbal instruction, correction etc not by writing for the most part.
There is more to the form than “searching for the bridge”
Spoken instruction pre dates the written in traditional wing chun transmission, IMO
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1156104]Let me add that I learned both methods of CK from different Sifus. They both have their value depending on the circumstance.[/QUOTE]
It gets more interesting and the holes get bigger and deeper my friend.
Please share the differences of both methods, because I am sure this is what Ian is interested in. I am too to be honest, as I remeber many things about Chum Kiu that referred to sinking, just not the name of the form
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1156112]Spencer IMO puts greater faith on the character alone and what he says his sifu told him.[/QUOTE]
You are right on many levels Joy, but wrong too. I was only responding to Phils post, but that’s fine.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1156112]Different tones for chum gives you different meanings. I don’t know what character Ip Man (Not Ip Chun and others) used himself. He did not write much. He taught by verbal instruction, correction etc not by writing for the most part.[/QUOTE]
Yes he did teach verbally to the many students who passed through him in HK. But some were taught the language of Wing Chun itself too, especially if they were ‘representing’ him abroad and learning ‘how to teach’.
But that’s just what my Sifu says and I have never tried to find out anything more, or research things for myself :rolleyes:
